Why Legacy Matters with Sharath Jeevan OBE

In this episode of Leadership Bites, Guy Bloom speaks with Sharath Jeevan OBE, legacy expert, Oxford lecturer, author of Inflection: A Roadmap for Leaders at a Crossroads, and founder of the Generational Success Lab at Saïd Business School.

Sharath describes legacy not as something leaders think about at the end of their career, but as the mark they are choosing to leave right now. The conversation explores why legacy matters in a world of uncertainty, AI, pressure, private equity, short term targets and constant organisational change.

Guy and Sharath challenge the idea that leadership is just task, output and performance management. They discuss why leaders need to think more deeply about meaning, contribution, significance and the experience they create for others.

Sharath shares how his own background, from being an Indian immigrant to becoming a social entrepreneur, adviser, author and OBE, shaped his thinking on preservation, reinvention and impact. He also explains why legacy is not only for CEOs or people nearing retirement, but for anyone who wants their work to matter.

This conversation looks at legacy through the lens of individuals, teams and organisations. It asks how leaders can build institutions, develop people, create ideas and shape cultures that continue beyond them.

A key theme is that legacy is not a soft idea. It is a strategic lens. It helps leaders stay grounded, make better decisions, hold long term intent alongside short term pressure, and create work that has meaning beyond the immediate task.

If you are leading a team, shaping a business, working through an inflection point, or asking what your leadership is really leaving behind, this episode will give you plenty to think about.

To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.

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Transcript

00:00:00:12 - 00:00:19:21
Guy Bloom: Welcome to Leadership Bites with myself, your host, Guy Bloom. This is a leadership podcast where I have conversations with colleagues, I chat with guests, and sometimes they'll be just me talking. You can connect with me at Living Brave and when you enjoy the episode, subscribe and please tell everyone.

00:00:19:23 - 00:00:31:10
Guy Bloom: So Sharath, welcome to the podcast.
Sharath Jeevan: Thanks. It's such a pleasure to to be on.
Guy Bloom: Well I'm really excited to have you on. We've had a lovely cup of coffee and a chat.

00:00:31:11 - 00:00:51:08
Guy Bloom: So we know where we are. Of course I know who you are because we've been talking and I've invited you on the podcast, but I would just love you to just introduce yourself. I mean, if you're at a social gathering and somebody said, oh, you know, who are you? Well, what do you do? It'd be just great to get your your answer to that.

00:00:51:09 - 00:01:14:01
Sharath Jeevan: Yeah. Thanks. So I guess people would call me a legacy whisper, perhaps the legacy whisperer. I'm. It's an area I'm really obsessed about this question of legacy. And I think of legacy not as something that we wait till the tombstone to think about, but something that we really, the moth, want to leave on the world right in the here and now, in the years to come and for generations to come as well.

00:01:14:01 - 00:01:19:09
Sharath Jeevan: Future generations and really making that world a better place as well. So we're going to get

00:01:19:09 - 00:01:20:02
Guy Bloom: into this idea of

00:01:20:04 - 00:01:33:11
Guy Bloom: legacy. I'm fascinated by it as well. You know, my background, I work with senior teams, and this idea of legacy isn't very often important to somebody when they're in their early 20s. But as we as we mature, it becomes the truth.

00:01:33:11 - 00:02:01:11
Guy Bloom: But I'm also interested, and I think I'd like to talk about what legacy could mean to somebody that doesn't even think it's important to them. So we'll have that conversation as well. But I would like to get a little bit of background that says, how did you get to this point? Because for me, understanding your backstory helps me understand why you might be somebody I'd listen to about this particular topic.

00:02:01:11 - 00:02:27:22
Guy Bloom: So give me that kind of journey from. I was born on the top of a mountain and raised by wolves. And then, you know, whatever it is. I'd love to hear that. Just that story.
Sharath Jeevan: Exactly. Yes. So, yeah, I think Simon, Indian immigrant to the UK, this country was sitting of course, in London this, this morning. And I, I spent quite a bit of my time in the UK, quite a bit in the Middle East and Saudi Arabia as a kid.

00:02:27:24 - 00:02:53:16
Sharath Jeevan: Came back to the UK very suddenly when the Gulf War happened. So all the stuff in the world, it's quite sort of, I don't know, a bit triggering in some regards what's happening there. And then UK has been home for about 30 years now, very much London in that sense. But I think one of the things that maybe when you're an immigrant think, you think a lot about is a lot of the sort of family legacy that you're inheriting has to has to change.

00:02:53:17 - 00:03:22:24
Sharath Jeevan: My my parents, you know, for many generations, their families have been in India. Suddenly you're in new country. You've got to start again. What do you what do you take with you? What do you keep in terms of Indian culture? Tradition? What do you reinvent for yourself? And I think it's that balance between, you know, if you like, preservation and reinvention, but I think is always fascinated me as an immigrant at a very personal level now, and organizations and a very turbulent world we're in, it feels like such a key theme.

00:03:23:00 - 00:03:51:09
Sharath Jeevan: And that's probably what drives it all that interesting legacy or more widely.
Guy Bloom: So give me a sense of the the roles that you've inhabited. So that's the the catalyst and the cultural heritage and the the the frame and the lens. So what are the roles that you've inhabited that then in, in the commercial context or any other kind of roles that you've been working in?

00:03:51:13 - 00:04:09:07
Sharath Jeevan: Yes, I think I've been searching. I guess I'm 30 years into my career turning 50 this year, so it feels very, quite scary. We look we look awesome for our age, you know, especially brushing on the video. Little help as well. No doubt. So yeah. So how did the world of consulting I think I saw my parents, doctors.

00:04:09:07 - 00:04:34:22
Sharath Jeevan: I come from a family of generations of doctors. I was the black sheep for. I got to Cambridge, I read it and so on. But still, that was still a little bit of a black mark. But I started off in consulting quite a conventional, starting a consulting tech with eBay into business school, Insead, etc., then spent about 15 years really as a social entrepreneur, and I saw two very large scale nonprofit organizations.

00:04:35:01 - 00:05:03:06
Sharath Jeevan: I spent my summers in India. Very struck by the disparity of outcomes there and how different life could have been if I'd just been on one other side of a window track. So did a lot of work on thinking about teachers and how to help them find motivation and purpose in teaching. So to charities, one in the UK, one in in the emerging world, the reached about 20 million young people, about 50,000 schools working and quite a big system change work with governments.

00:05:03:08 - 00:05:19:05
Sharath Jeevan: But five years ago I felt like I was hitting a bit of a plateau, found a syndrome, all of those sort of things, and I, I felt that I wanted to help other leaders box better in this next chapter. I'd been doing the boxing myself, if you like, and I felt there were so many other great is out there.

00:05:19:05 - 00:05:43:22
Sharath Jeevan: You had huge potential to make a mark in the world. And maybe that comes back to to legacy. How can I really amplify their impact and be that kind of legacy? Whisper a guide sounding board to them as they make an even deeper mark on the world as well? It felt like the Nonexempt was sort of almost going out and sitting out in the in the seats I didn't want to remove for me to pacify this stage.

00:05:44:00 - 00:06:03:06
Sharath Jeevan: I didn't want to be the boxer, but I wanted to be in the ring, you know, in between the timeouts. Is that right in boxing on the box and that, well, you know, helping helping them sort of really recalibrate, reflect, think as they go on these very deep leadership journeys as well.
Guy Bloom: They say founder syndrome. Just tell me what that means because I've not heard that phrase before.

00:06:03:08 - 00:06:24:20
Sharath Jeevan: So it's one where a founders start. I could see this myself. You become the first founder who says, you know, we tried this in 2018. It didn't work. Okay. So you everything becomes like you're in the identity of the organization and your personality becomes so intertwined. It's not healthy. I think, you know, many organizations that are very successful have the mark of a founder.

00:06:24:20 - 00:06:44:08
Sharath Jeevan: And it's a wonderful book called The Founders DNA or the Funders Mentality, which talks about that DNA being important. But if it becomes too important, it can almost become obsessive and it can override the success of an organization as well. And my my deal was to always be ahead of that, never get to that point. Hopefully where that became a huge issue.

00:06:44:10 - 00:07:12:18
Sharath Jeevan: Could I see those patterns before?
Guy Bloom: So I'm only going to bring it up for a brief moment because I think it's worth just understanding. So, OBE, I know you're not going to offer that without me asking it. So what was that for? How did that come about?
Sharath Jeevan: Yeah, that was the organization actually as well. And it was a very it was a nice time actually, because it was a year into my new journey and it been honestly a sort of somewhat tough first year transitioning into independent advisory.

00:07:12:20 - 00:07:28:10
Sharath Jeevan: And as you know, you know, you go from world where you're as a CEO, founder, you know, your time is super programed. You know, I had barely had time to go to the bathroom. Many back to back meetings. You feel very important. You're running around the world. Suddenly you have this incredible abundance of time which you have to structure.

00:07:28:14 - 00:07:43:04
Sharath Jeevan: You've got lots of things to do, but no one is on your case. No one is going to hold you accountable beyond yourself. It was quite a tricky transition to to manage, and this was the middle of the wave two of the pandemic as well. So lots of projects that I was going to start off with got delayed.

00:07:43:05 - 00:07:59:02
Sharath Jeevan: They all they started, they all got, you know, commenced. But six months further, the book I was meant to write, my first book got delayed by the publisher since the pandemic. No one's going to read books. And it was actually as you couldn't do book events. It was the opposite, actually, as we know. But anyway, that got delayed by the eight months.

00:07:59:02 - 00:08:15:21
Sharath Jeevan: I had this kind of limbo first year. And so then the news came out at the end of that first year. Yeah, it was a lovely sort of. Yeah. Celebration of things as a, as an immigrant, my parents made a lot of sacrifices to come to this country and to feel that, you know, within a generation you can make a certain national level impact.

00:08:15:21 - 00:08:23:19
Guy Bloom: That was a lovely, lovely feeling as well, I imagine. So that legacy.

00:08:23:21 - 00:08:48:19
Guy Bloom: I always hesitate to say, so what I think legacy is, let me let me just get at the most basic level, if somebody says, well, legacy, then what do you mean by that? Let's just get that on the table as a starting point for our frame of reference. Why? What is it? And yeah, let's just start there. What does legacy mean?

00:08:48:21 - 00:09:10:03
Guy Bloom: And maybe why would leaders want to have it in their thinking.
Sharath Jeevan: Great question. So the way I define it very simply is the mark we want to leave on the world. The mark you want to leave on the world. You probably may have heard the, you know, the Steve Jobs, the denti make that kind of stuff, but dent in the universe into the universe.

00:09:10:03 - 00:09:30:03
Sharath Jeevan: I think Mark is a bit more deliberate. I think it's a little bit hopefully longer lasting as well. But I think that idea of what is that mark as well. And I think the reason why it's important today is that I see, especially in public companies, but even in private companies and non-profits, government, etc.. I think leadership is becoming very instrumental ized.

00:09:30:03 - 00:09:53:13
Sharath Jeevan: Right? You have quarterly targets. You're on a on a hamster wheel. Many of the CEOs and leadership teams I work with, they barely have time to reflect or think, and it all feels very paint by numbers. Now, honestly, in many leadership settings, I think that's super dangerous. And I think the stuff around AI and this narrative that the tech grows are giving us that, you know, we're going to have AI CEOs and so on.

00:09:53:15 - 00:10:19:09
Sharath Jeevan: It's nonsensical, but I think it plays into this narrative where we've almost taken out the nobility and the heroism of what leadership really is. And I think this idea of legacy is one part, I think, of an attempt to try to reframe leadership, something deeply noble, something you know, really important about. It's about helping people and and organizations reach places they wouldn't reach otherwise.

00:10:19:09 - 00:10:47:10
Sharath Jeevan: That's my definition of leadership. Yeah. How can we bring that back? And so it's that sort of thinking that is intentional. It's reflective, it's deep. It's really about the person and the people around an organization and putting them back in that, the center of that, of that picture.
Guy Bloom: So I'm fascinated by that word nobility, because heroic leadership has has a sense of the caricature of the CEO.

00:10:47:10 - 00:11:19:09
Guy Bloom: And what they're doing is it's, you know, they they front and center and the organization doesn't exist without them. So there are dangers there. But there is a a heroic journey, a hero's journey. I think that goes with being, well, even just this year, a senior leader in an organization. So I do like this idea of actually, if we strip out the humanity from the role, then in reality, what's the purpose behind you?

00:11:19:09 - 00:11:54:23
Guy Bloom: Because then, well, AI probably could do it because if it's just a doing and it's just task and it's just resource management, well, they there you are. But actually if I say, well, management is what you're doing and leadership is who you're being, I think that plays in very much to not just the narrative around you, the experience you give people, which I think a lot of people can rationalize for now, yes, when I'm out there, town hall events, speaking to individuals, the experience people have of me, that makes sense.

00:11:55:00 - 00:12:21:20
Guy Bloom: But when you say legacy to somebody that's owned by a PE house or they've got all they've got an urn out. Legacy for some people is and I have this phrase every now and then that somebody might say or worry about that after this, as in, I'm on this hamster wheel looking at earning that much or creating that brand so I can go and do the next big thing.

00:12:21:22 - 00:12:47:03
Guy Bloom: So I wonder if the caricature of legacy is somebody that's at the end of their career, but in truth, how might legacy really be valuable to somebody that's in their career? That's what I'm because I can understand. I've got a couple of years left. I'm interested in a legacy. Fine. But that's less than helpful because you spent two decades being a lunatic, right?

00:12:47:04 - 00:13:21:14
Guy Bloom: So I wonder if the caricature of legacy is somebody that's at the end of their career, but in truth, how might legacy really be valuable to somebody that's in their career? That's what I'm because I can understand. I've got a couple of years left. I'm interested in a legacy. Fine. But that's less than helpful because you spent two decades being a lunatic, right? So how might that factor in to somebody who is actually in their career,
Sharath Jeevan: who actually preempted my graduation speech? So my class lots for this graduating. I run a program within a site business school for the NBA. We've got a graduation ceremony for the group evening. What are you talking about, guys? This idea that maybe we're at a point where you might have heard that this sort of phrase, from success to significance, was coined a couple of decades ago, and this idea that, you know, at the beginning of our careers, we often chase success in other people's, terms.

00:13:21:15 - 00:13:42:08
Sharath Jeevan: Right? We look at the title or the fancy car, the how nice is our window or view of the office, all that kind of stuff. And then at some point there's perhaps towards midlife, we sort of start to think about actually, is what I'm doing actually meaningful? Is it actually creating an impact in the world? Most of our kids are triggered about thinking as well and society around us.

00:13:42:11 - 00:13:59:16
Sharath Jeevan: What I think is going to happen now, they are and so on, is that we're going to leapfrog that success phase quite strongly and go much more quickly into significance. And so what I'm going to talk to my end, a class about tonight is this idea that maybe we need to think about that much early in her career.

00:13:59:17 - 00:14:22:04
Sharath Jeevan: They're in their late 20s, early 30s. There weren't about 6 to 10 years to be before doing this. They're going back into the workforce now. They're going back into a very uncertain and unstable workforce where so much change is happening, so much disruption. And I keep talking about, you know, there was a very famous study of Harvard MBAs who went back to the 25th Union, to Harvard.

00:14:22:04 - 00:14:44:18
Sharath Jeevan: And they all, most of them all had done financially well. They had got very fancy titles, very respectable by externalize, but very few had done what they had gone to business school to do, had to create some really important new product to lead an organization a fundamentally different way in a sector that they really cared about. They've got sucked into that kind of success treadmill.

00:14:44:20 - 00:15:10:02
Sharath Jeevan: And so I think it's always been a tricky journey in midlife to try to or even later to move from success to significance. And I just wonder whether now where we've got to really make significance much more central in careers much earlier on. And when you say significance, I think about, well, the significance is that an external frame of reference.

00:15:10:02 - 00:15:36:17
Guy Bloom: Because if I think about meaning, to me that's an internal frame of reference. So I have a sense that if I think about legacy and I'm in my 20s or my 30s or my 40s, I might go, well, actually, in an environment that with from AI through to just the pace, you know, when the internet happened, everyone and we all had mobile phones.

00:15:36:17 - 00:16:02:23
Guy Bloom: It was going to make everything easier. It didn't. It sped everything up. And in truth, maybe there is a meaning in the journey of legacy that you're building something that is not just the story for your brand, for the narrative about how people talk about you now, which is completely relevant. And you need to manage that. But actually, where does the meaning come from?

00:16:03:00 - 00:16:25:00
Guy Bloom: And so there's the significance of achievement. But then there's the intrinsic journey. And I'm wondering if that's what I'm. Yeah, that's my frame of reference. And I'm actually was called intrinsic. It was about intrinsic motivation. But I, I use that significance as a, as an internal marker. Yeah. What you're saying thing to you may be different from what it is to me, and there's no judgment about that at all.

00:16:25:02 - 00:16:43:09
Sharath Jeevan: But I think very few leaders of any age or sort of tenure have had the chance to reflect on what it means for them. And so I asked my my about have similar graduation assignment. And the question was what you come back to for 25 years from now, what's your legacy going to going to have me really as well.

00:16:43:13 - 00:17:01:16
Sharath Jeevan: And many of them obviously very challenging question to think about this stage of their careers, but I think it opened up a lot of thinking about what do I want, what's the market I want to leave on the world, how do I want people to feel about me as well? Often we forget what a leader said or what exact instructions or whatever, but we always remember how they made us feel.

00:17:01:19 - 00:17:39:09
Guy Bloom: And I think that's something we can start from the very start of our careers, or even mid-career, around that idea of legacy as well as significance. So sometimes when people talk about brand, that feels very now you know your brand, you know, what are people saying about you? And again, that has to be faith. But legacy might be then a challenge to your ultimate narrative, which actually asks you to think bigger than the context that you're operating in and maybe have a level of aspiration for the when I'm done even.

00:17:39:09 - 00:18:01:21
Guy Bloom: And I'm in my 20s and I remember 30s, but even when I'm done, I want it to not just be the the story of what I did in the last couple of years. I want to look back on a body of work and maybe have a pride in it. And maybe when my name comes up from people I don't even remember, they go, oh, when I bumped into Guy bloom, and I remember he did this and it really stuck with me.

00:18:01:21 - 00:18:24:10
Guy Bloom: And actually, do you are you interested in that? And I wonder just your thoughts on that idea of actually legacy creates a larger aspiration for you than just operating in the now.
Sharath Jeevan: Yeah, I love that idea of larger, especially love the idea of a body of work that really resonates very strongly. I think in all the work I do, I often think about the pillars of legacy being threefold.

00:18:24:16 - 00:18:48:16
Sharath Jeevan: So one is institutions. The second is the people. People are leaders which are and third being ideas. I think more and more I'm more and more skeptical on the institutional front. Only we've seen even in the US, things like the Supreme Court. I think it's like we never thought could become corrupted yet, you know, very, very, you know, people can change institutions and destroy them very, very fast.

00:18:48:17 - 00:19:07:11
Sharath Jeevan: We had the Peruvian parliament here with a former prime minister. We had it and so on. So I think institutions are not, not infallible. They can be they can be captured. I think where my energy is going, more and more is about thinking about leaders and people. They will rotate. We talked about this in the morning. They'll go to an organization, to organization.

00:19:07:12 - 00:19:25:15
Sharath Jeevan: They will make a huge legacy and impact. If we can really nurture them and help them step out and have that larger aspiration. So that's one of the roles I try to play is really nurture leaders very close. That could be to coaching facilitation advisory. But at the core, those leaders are really what I think of my legacy in this chapter.

00:19:25:21 - 00:19:46:09
Sharath Jeevan: The third thing I think is ideas. And I'd written books and I'm working on new books, but I think how we frame the world and think about it is profoundly influential. It's not how many TikTok impressions about God or LinkedIn things, but it's more. Have you built a body of intellectual work that is challenging, of the status quo, that helps people think differently as well?

00:19:46:09 - 00:20:10:17
Sharath Jeevan: So yeah, institutions for sure, but I think people and ideas, there's a lot of work to do to really nurture those of a legacy can be creative. And if you think about what goes into a legacy for, well, maybe before we do that, if we think about an individual's legacy, the team's legacy, the organization's ultimate legacy, so would I do.

00:20:10:17 - 00:20:41:13
Guy Bloom: And I know you're working with the individual, working with the team. Just how do you get into that conversation? Because I can imagine, you know, I have the same thing. So I just would like to compare notes in some respects, when you have a highly driven, very commercially orientated almost, you know, the running down the hill and if they stop, they're going to fall over, you know, that's how busy they are.

00:20:41:15 - 00:20:58:12
Guy Bloom: Does that there's a distribution curve I think isn't there are people who would go, oh. For every ten people in the senior team, a couple are going to go, oh, this is really interesting. A couple probably want to sit down and make sense of it. And then there's going to be a couple going, what is this about?

00:20:58:15 - 00:21:19:19
Guy Bloom: So how do you broach that and start to get people interested who aren't already interested.
Sharath Jeevan: Right. So I think I'm working a bit like a marriage nowadays guy, where an organization, it's tricky. It's much trickier. That used to be before an organization has a legacy and a mission, of course, and it needs to define that for itself clearly.

00:21:19:20 - 00:21:42:06
Sharath Jeevan: Many, many museum very banal or kind of very vanilla type, sort of, you know, messaging on this stuff without really thinking what they're trying to do in the world. But beyond that, I think individuals have got to have a legacy aspiration themselves, legacy vision. And it's when the two sort of come together in a, in a, in a bit of marriage where I think we get worked to really take off a leaders can make a huge impact.

00:21:42:06 - 00:21:59:14
Sharath Jeevan: So a lot of it I do helping organizations, that's a bread model I do is really helping define that organizational legacy with the leaders of the organization, not just the C-suite, but also with the emerging generation, the rising generation in that in that organization, because they'll be the future, of course, as well. So that's one part of it.

00:21:59:14 - 00:22:26:02
Sharath Jeevan: But I also do not work individually with the leaders of, say, CCS, who are what what's their individual impact. And to be in legacy going to be. And I think if we can understand both those elements of the equation, you can kind of saw for that as well. So there might be a let's say, you know, let's say the director of technology, who's got a, a real superpower and belief in making technology more accessible, that maybe is their legacy aspiration.

00:22:26:02 - 00:22:46:11
Sharath Jeevan: They want to develop a career where people aren't scared of things like AI, but actually want to really use it in a very, very human way and bring up the humanity of work and so on that can link to the organization's purpose. Let's say it's a technology company. There's a very clear fit there. We can find those lines where both sides feel really fulfilled in that kind of exchange as well.

00:22:46:16 - 00:23:06:12
Sharath Jeevan: I think where where danger starts is when you're good self is not clear what its real legacy is meant to be, and the individual hasn't thought about it. And then it is that kind of autopilot risk where it's very instrumental. You might be maximizing for the short term, but you never really capture the the impact you want for the longer term.

00:23:06:14 - 00:23:09:22
Guy Bloom: Yeah. Because I.

00:23:09:24 - 00:23:43:24
Guy Bloom: I'm really interested in this bit because I think, I think people have a sense the word legacy won't be in the general persons. I mean, they'll know what the word is, but there won't be using it in this context unless maybe you're at a more senior level. But I think people, for the want of a better word, further down the food chain, hierarchically, I think they know when the individual, the team, the senior team are, yes, focused on commercial outputs.

00:23:44:00 - 00:24:16:19
Guy Bloom: Yes. We're not running a kibbutz usually, so I get that. But I think they have a sense of when it's only that. And I think people have a real sense of the conversations that we have have no meaning beyond output, which means I am really only a resource to you. And yeah, you can talk about a vision or values, but that's only as a vehicle for you to get more output.

00:24:16:19 - 00:24:50:00
Guy Bloom: So I feel more connected to the work. But there's no and it might be intrinsic value in the work and it might be that we have a good culture. But if but I think people are quite suspicious in that way. So I'm just that becomes very interesting to me that the idea of we might be using the word legacy, but actually meaning beyond task, which then would equate to a legacy.

00:24:50:02 - 00:25:16:19
Guy Bloom: That's my kind of frame of reference on it. I wonder if that resonates with you as we compare notes in the workplace.
Sharath Jeevan: We see this every year in the collapse survey, but it's getting worse. I think Gen Z, the Rising Generation are even more, worried, I think, and I think rugby. So. Right. I think if you look at the leaders and look at the whole piece of di diversity, equity, inclusion, you know, just what 18 months ago that was the all the thing every year was claiming that that was the big thing.

00:25:16:19 - 00:25:31:05
Sharath Jeevan: And now it's all been jettisoned. Created a meta just recently just disbanded all this stuff. And yeah, whether or not you believe it, it's one thing. But then if you believe that that should be the case that 18 months ago and now if you didn't believe it. You should have said that 18 months and not making a judgment either way.

00:25:31:05 - 00:25:56:05
Sharath Jeevan: But I'm saying stand for something. And I think some leaders are playing a, you know, a bit of a musical change which performative. Yeah. It's almost what's the trend, what's they don't actually they're not led by their own value system or their own sense of what they're trying to build. And so when they're when they're spoken to by somebody who has that agenda, they have no real position on it.

00:25:56:10 - 00:26:17:13
Guy Bloom: So they get led by others. And I've noticed that in one of my big clients is they've just moved to away from that Di position. They've moved more into a fairness space because actually, yeah, they've they've found lots of issues with it. And again, not judging now, but I think one of the things that could have that should have been done for the outside.

00:26:17:14 - 00:26:40:11
Sharath Jeevan: Right, as well. So yeah, just that intentionality I think is so important around leadership. But I think right now we are playing this game where we have dehumanize, work, dehumanize leadership so much. Yeah, it is ripe for AI because we aren't showing the signs of courage, of conviction, curiosity, a difference of vision and perspective that I think are critical to really building a legacy vision.

00:26:40:11 - 00:26:54:18
Sharath Jeevan: I think if you don't see the world, if you see the world the same way everyone else sees the world, you shouldn't be leaving today. There's no there's no room for you as a leader. That is why it. I'd argue because you're then going to be just a better manager than someone else. AI will be able to do it better than than someone.

00:26:54:18 - 00:27:18:10
Sharath Jeevan: But leadership for me is about a difference in perspective. It's about seeing the world in a different way, believing there's a need that other people don't see, and the courage and eviction to actually see you that and make that the mission of the organization and bring and align people, overcome concerns and fears, achieve that new vision and make a deeper impact and mark in the world as well.

00:27:18:12 - 00:27:48:17
Guy Bloom: So whether or not it's an so for me, it's not an instead of it's an and so it's not just, you know, it's it's commercial, you know or it's it's people and culture and and environment and legacy. No, no it's not, it's not or or instead of it's, it's and so there's something about and an overlay or you know, when you're doing Photoshop editing, you know, you can you know, you can overlay the things on top of each other.

00:27:48:18 - 00:28:11:07
Guy Bloom: It's, it's the, it's the coexistence of it. And I almost get a sense of no legacy, no trust. You know, maybe that's a t shirt. I'm not sure. But I do have a right. But it's it might be will write a book on it. But there's something there that says, actually the word legacy is a starting point for a conversation.

00:28:11:07 - 00:28:34:08
Guy Bloom: But in truth, what does it mean? And it means I or we have an agenda that is, well, it might be seeds of a tree that I plant that I don't get to see, you know, come to fruition. But actually, if I set the organization up or we work with the organization in such a way, it has a legacy and a momentum.

00:28:34:08 - 00:29:00:01
Guy Bloom: And I think that's interesting beyond the individual that maybe instigated it. And that would be the test. If that person goes now, somebody can come in and destroy it. But all things being equal, how does it what's its continuance, I think is probably an important factor. Yeah. I think one thing is, I think my legacy is really shifted quite a bit over the past years, is that we're in such a turbulent world.

00:29:00:01 - 00:29:27:07
Sharath Jeevan: I think to say, I think what what sort of becomes very hard is the vase approach legacy, where here's the vase I've created. I would say I'm stepping down as CEO. Discussion. The vase is going to be the same. No one's going to break it. The world is too turbulent for that now. But I think what you're what the legacy is, is the ability of your team to be able to continue and the next generation of your company or organization to keep refining that legacy vision, defining, making it relevant, updating it.

00:29:27:09 - 00:29:52:01
Sharath Jeevan: It's a dynamic capability rather than a static capability. It's a it's a flow rather than a stop as well. And then it's also the people. I was at a conference actually in Oxford, and about 15 of alumni. I founded were running events across Oxford now leaving their own organizations. And that's a different each one will have their own version of legacy, but I think each one of them was how they felt when they were in my organization.

00:29:52:02 - 00:30:06:23
Sharath Jeevan: To me, that was the the deepest legacy for you're building leaders who will understand that sort of broad approach in the broader sense, that culture you talked about, they'll go on and do amazing things in the world as well.

00:30:07:00 - 00:30:34:12
Guy Bloom: So it is something then, if you can, as particularly as an organization, maybe have conversations with talent and not leave legacy to the the people are on the way out, you know, and actually go actually, no. Why don't you do it like this? Why don't you talk to an 18 year old or a 20 year old, or a 25 year old about legacy?

00:30:34:14 - 00:31:03:12
Guy Bloom: Because in truth, if they and actually recalibrate somebody's understanding of when we talk about legacy, we don't do we're not talking about what you're doing at the end. We're talking about a continual narrative. We're talking about the fact that as they go, it could be the legacy in that team. When they then get promoted to another team, it might be the legacy that you give to somebody that when they get promoted and go off to another division, that legacy goes of you, goes with them.

00:31:03:17 - 00:31:22:20
Guy Bloom: And I think it's making it less as an end game, but more actually as when we're talking to talent and bringing them through. Implant that seed now because it becomes a continual frame of reference. I mean, I think there's three sort of ways. I think a lot of my work is about democratizing that idea of legacy, making it accessible for everyone.

00:31:22:21 - 00:31:43:01
Sharath Jeevan: So, as you said, one one thing is around the stage of career. So it should be something that everyone thinks about. Whatever. Let's take you second thing, I think you talk about talent. I think yes, for our tops of top leaders are makes sense. But you know, we all know the story of the, the cleaner who was at at what was it called?

00:31:43:03 - 00:31:59:05
Sharath Jeevan: Canaveral, actually, where JFK saw and he said, what am I what are you doing? And he said, I'm helping put a man on the moon. I think if everyone in an organization can see that and see how that world connects, their work connects and makes a difference. That has a huge impact as well. And it makes work much more fulfilling and human.

00:31:59:06 - 00:32:21:24
Sharath Jeevan: Very few people can say that right now very well really believe that what they do, everything has a meaningful difference on the legacy of their position. So for me, it's a little bit like if people talk about. So when I talk about psychometric profiles and I was just talking to Peter Road, that would be the yesterday on the podcast Who's Psychometric Expert.

00:32:21:24 - 00:32:39:12
Guy Bloom: But we're talking about and when I think about psychometrics, when we talk about people who are creative or, well, creative isn't necessarily just creating the next Dyson vacuum cleaner. It might be just something as simple as, why don't we move that Excel column to that Excel column? I know we've been doing it like that for 20 years, but that would make it better.

00:32:39:15 - 00:33:09:02
Guy Bloom: So what I mean by that is simple things would be classed as innovative, but legacy could be it's not my end game because I earn out the legacy might be. I always ensure, for example, that in my team I'm a supervisor in a call center. What's my legacy here? And actually it is about at that almost base root level that I ensure that I have regular PD.

00:33:09:04 - 00:33:28:08
Guy Bloom: I really do spend the time to coach people, even though I don't have that time. I make sure that they're never caught out by what I think about them. I give them constant feedback, and what I do is I teach everybody how to give feedback so they can give each other feedback. And so and we put that into a space.

00:33:28:10 - 00:33:55:04
Guy Bloom: Lalalala. And that continues. Now actually I get more excited about thinking about the legacy for the person that's doing. And I can't believe I'm actually going to say this a normal job. Right. Even because actually that would mean when I do become an executive, now some people know I'm going to stay at this level, right? Knocking it out of the park, being incredibly valuable.

00:33:55:06 - 00:34:22:03
Guy Bloom: And that idea of legacy there, I think adds value. But then for x percent, they're going to continue. And wouldn't it be interesting is by the time they hit that C-suite legacy is already ingrained as a frame of reference, because it was put into my brain when I was 25 or or whatever. I find that interesting. Yeah, I think as I've worked with, are thinking about the legacy in terms of that person on the front line.

00:34:22:05 - 00:34:39:13
Sharath Jeevan: So if you're at the working of the tape right now, they think about what's the experience in front of house. That's to let in 3000 guests every every morning.
Guy Bloom: I love that, love that.
Sharath Jeevan: So if their job is to help and serve that person and help them be more effective because the CEO is not going to face the tape for they get about 8 million visitors a year.

00:34:39:17 - 00:35:01:00
Sharath Jeevan: The face of it is that person on the front line who greets them and is either happy or grumpy or helpful. They're very happy and very helpful. But that sort of idea really, of they are the piece who really are. The people are helping us interact with. Everything we need to do in our legacy is about empowering them, so it almost inverts the prioritization and makes it them at the center.

00:35:01:06 - 00:35:09:10
Sharath Jeevan: You know, those are at the center of all our work as well.

00:35:09:12 - 00:35:34:06
Guy Bloom: So if, if when you start to work with an organization, what's your entry point and what's your process when somebody says, hey, let's start, let's like the idea, how do I bring you in? What do you start to talk to people about? I think the usual triggers, if you like, guy for me, are some kind of major inflection point going on in the organization.

00:35:34:06 - 00:36:01:04
Sharath Jeevan: That's usually the right time to look at legacy. It could be a succession of CEO, for example. It could be a board significant change or the board chair. It could be significant changes in external market or landscape regulation, for example. Yeah, any of those internal or external drivers tend to imply the rules of the game are changing. It's a good time to reflect that and navigate this, this period of inflection, but do that with a long term perspective behind it.

00:36:01:04 - 00:36:18:14
Sharath Jeevan: And that's where the legacy thinking comes in. But sometimes, you know, many conversations with tears will not always have that. They will not call me up saying, I want to talk about legacy, but it's there's a lot going on. I'm just not trying to make sense of all that. And this framing or a legacy can be very powerful in that at that point in that regard.

00:36:18:14 - 00:36:45:20
Sharath Jeevan: So yeah, like many things, it's a it's a conversation. I don't I hold these things very lightly. It's not you know, it's not going to be a straight jacket, but it's a way of thinking about the world that tries to encourage more long, longer term thinking and about your creativity, more creative thinking at those points as well. So if you work with an individual or a team, do you have a process that you would say, these are the questions that I start to bring to the table.

00:36:45:22 - 00:37:06:22
Guy Bloom: This is the that either the challenge or the curiosity that I want people to have. What's that kind of bring that to life a little bit?
Sharath Jeevan: Yeah. It's my core sort of way of working is to what do you call a guided legacy journey? It takes between about 12 to 18 months typically, and it's all about starting with the the strategy and direction of an organization.

00:37:06:22 - 00:37:26:19
Sharath Jeevan: First. What is that that vision? Where is it trying to go overall a lot of times that that is there, but it's often either it's been there for a while, it hasn't been refreshed very often, or it's a kind of funny mechanical plan of sort of 15, you know, adding growth targets to a to a revenue curve. It's not really thinking what's the organization's unique role in the world?

00:37:26:21 - 00:37:50:00
Sharath Jeevan: How does it see the world and its sector differently? What's it superpowers and secret sauce. So we we go to those principles somehow articulate what that looks like. When that's clear, we then start to look at what does the, what is the funding model that that drives out the revenue model depending on sector. Is that sustaining that that difference in in in positioning and and distinctiveness.

00:37:50:03 - 00:38:09:15
Sharath Jeevan: What's the organizational culture. And to build and achieve that. How do we tell the story of it. How do we measure whether it be successful? It's a fairly fundamental questions, but it's a very like organic, quite authentic process. I try not to, you know, make this into sort of very, process of I type things. It's very emergent.

00:38:09:15 - 00:38:31:10
Sharath Jeevan: But those are the kind of key questions that always want to make sure it comes out is that who are we now? What's our legacy and vision for the world? What's the funding models have to be really, you know, to balance the books? Is there some funding model behind that? Can I tell that story compelling you to our key stakeholders, internal and external, including investors and so on?

00:38:31:12 - 00:38:52:19
Sharath Jeevan: Can I can I measure what I've been successful and I built the right organization and cultures sustain that as well. Those are the questions we almost always touch on in these journalism. And and that's probably important to understand. That legacy then, isn't just a nice fuzzy story at the end. Well, we did this commercially, but but it was a lovely place.

00:38:52:19 - 00:39:34:13
Guy Bloom: And, you know, I really took the time to coach and mentor people. That's not what this is. It legacy may not necessarily be that everybody enjoyed every moment. It might not be. So you're really, if I'm hearing you correctly, what we're talking about here is the overall narrative from the, the framing of the of the, the aspiration, the commercial hard decisions, the hard work, the graft, the grit, the pain, the it's it feels like a Greek narrative, you know, that actually, what we're talking about here is Homer's Odyssey.

00:39:34:15 - 00:40:02:17
Guy Bloom: What we're talking about here is something that actually, it's a whole story, and there's a lot of humanity in it, and there'll be some pain in it. And so actually, this isn't just some aspirational let's get something on the wall. It's different to a vision statement. It's different to a purpose statement. It's it's the it's the Odyssey. It's the journey is is that is that what I'm hearing modern day.

00:40:02:19 - 00:40:19:03
Sharath Jeevan: It's a lovely question. But yeah. No, I think it very much. It's got to be real I think to the point you're making. Right. Let's you can't be a fluffy thing. It's got to feel lived and breathed. It's about how we feel and how we feel is really about what we experience every day. And that's someone at the front line all the way through to a CEO.

00:40:19:07 - 00:40:44:24
Sharath Jeevan: So it has to be there. And often in these journeys, I'll actually help the organization actually implement some quick wins around that to show it's possible as well. So it might be new products or services that immediately reach on a quickly reach a customer applying group to show what's possible. That builds belief that there was momentum. So it's really trying to also build confidence and, and, and a critical mass of support in the organization towards these changes.

00:40:44:24 - 00:41:03:10
Guy Bloom: At the same time, where do you get resistance?
Sharath Jeevan: I think a lot of it is where I think if I think about the psychographics and also I think, you know, as we get, we do more and more of of the work. I think knowing who your ideal archetype of a client is, it's really important who they are. Right as well.

00:41:03:10 - 00:41:25:02
Sharath Jeevan: And I work across many different sectors and very geographic in many different countries. So it's very broad that way. But it tends to be the kind of the CEO typically in the leadership team, they've got to be open and curious. They've got to be willing, I think, to be willing to change the rules and set the rules on their terms rather than accept the rules as given.

00:41:25:03 - 00:41:45:05
Sharath Jeevan: I think if someone is, this is how it's done. It has to be done. They usually not my my, my, my, my ideal client to do this kind of work with. And they've got to have courage and conviction. They've got to, you know, when they believe that and have the space to think and reflect, they've got to be willing to take some difficult decisions to align an organization in that direction and build a mentor and so on.

00:41:45:10 - 00:42:03:19
Sharath Jeevan: At the same time, so these are the human characteristics of a leader. And I always see myself as helping to amplify their impact, that kind of legacy whisperer to them to achieve that. There's no judgment what that is, but I do I challenge quite hard to make sure that what comes out is really well thought through and look at different options.

00:42:03:19 - 00:42:31:15
Guy Bloom: We don't go for the easy option at all, but the role is how can we amplify that, that that piece as well. So actually this isn't about shoehorning UN and enforcing an agenda of legacy, because in truth, that's it's you finding, you know, you're a particular jigsaw piece and you've got to find the right puzzle. So and I think I'm very much the same, I'm, I'm not all things to all people.

00:42:31:16 - 00:43:02:23
Guy Bloom: And I'm probably at the level we operate. We shouldn't be generic or vanilla. So that makes sense. There's probably also something that says it's a very interesting, maybe curiosity question for anybody listening that if you are of a level and you're thinking, you know, that wouldn't be for us, well, that might be a little bit of a curiosity flag that goes, well, why wouldn't it be?

00:43:03:00 - 00:43:25:20
Guy Bloom: What would? Well, because it all sounds a little bit A, B, C or D, you go, yeah. And that might be that little bit if you couldn't imagine it. If you, if you, if I understand it might not be, you might not think it's the right time. But if you were in a dismissal space with this way of thinking, that's an interesting health check for a kind of self review.

00:43:25:22 - 00:43:48:19
Sharath Jeevan: And I think the archetype of that would probably be an industry where it's super stable, not changing the rules of internet for a long time. The company is happy and what those rules are and sort of going along with that. And the reality those those sectors are much smaller today given the turbulence in the world. Right. So I think it's a really good question to ask if anyone listening is that really those are my assumptions.

00:43:48:20 - 00:44:00:16
Sharath Jeevan: Are those assumptions still valid? They mean maybe not even two years ago 18 months ago. Are they still valid now?
Guy Bloom: Yeah, I deal with some PE houses and I.

00:44:00:18 - 00:44:24:17
Guy Bloom: And when you work with those organizations, you know they're on a three year run out or they're on a five year strategy surge or whatever the heck, whatever they're doing, the doing massive acquisition trials. So if you went legacy, the vein would start pumping on the side of it because they go, have you? What are you talking about?

00:44:24:18 - 00:45:02:15
Guy Bloom: Yellow tick. Actually. But actually, in truth, if you can hold, one of my favorite quotes is F Scott Fitzgerald going the sign of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing truths and still function. I love that quote, right? So in truth, maybe if you are maxed out, if you cannot hold any more than than the workload, maybe that is telling you that actually, what are your chances of getting where you've got to do if you're if it's already too much?

00:45:02:17 - 00:45:33:04
Guy Bloom: And I'm interested in that space for those people as well, bringing that into their thinking, to give it meaning and to give it aspiration and to give it value beyond, well, we're going to get a bucket load of money when we finish, but for everybody else, they're still going to be here. So actually, for people to feel that they can trust us and to talk about legacy wouldn't be a bad thing because we're going to be gone.

00:45:33:05 - 00:45:55:24
Sharath Jeevan: Yeah, yeah. And actually the reason people might want to contribute is that when we gon they've heard us talking about legacy. That's interesting. I think I think he is going to have a bit of a reckoning actually. Was it a next gen conference yesterday? I do a lot of work with family offices, funny business as well, and I think the limited partners of the future are not going to take the sort of the current.

00:45:56:01 - 00:46:18:14
Sharath Jeevan: Again, I think there are different kinds of firms, firms who have that longer term. They may have they may want to have an exit in whatever three years, five years, seven years, whatever, but they want to leave something tangible behind. There are also firms that are willing to write a company to the Hill to leave almost nothing behind beyond a financial payout, to be to the partners of the fund and the partners.

00:46:18:15 - 00:46:35:18
Sharath Jeevan: I just think the next gen and we've got about $180 trillion of wealth being transferred to the next 15 years around the world, they're not going to stand for that. So a P fund that is doing the extractive game, I think is living on borrowed time. Yeah, you might work for the next few. It's not going to it's going to be caught up very soon.

00:46:35:18 - 00:47:02:11
Sharath Jeevan: And public perception is moving so fast. It's it's going to be a dead game very soon, honestly. So if you're a partner listening to this, I'd say maybe it's time to think about this and future proof yourself for what your future LPs are going to be. Taking control of a wealth very fast. Yeah, and it might be. Yeah, I think there's a there's a very interesting challenge there to if you can't fathom it, if you can't imagine it, it doesn't mean you're right.

00:47:02:13 - 00:47:23:01
Guy Bloom: It might mean that actually you can't see the back of your own head. And actually, if other people are talking about it as a frame of reference, but you're poo poo it, then maybe. What am I missing? You know what? The words don't matter. I think that's the key thing. So if legacy is not the word that means, you know, if there's another word that means in your culture of corporate culture or whatever, that's fine.

00:47:23:01 - 00:47:50:05
Sharath Jeevan: It's not about the normal culture or the that thinking about the long term. It's the conversation, not the word. Right. And we have to give it a word so we can have a conversation. But if you want to use another word, crack on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the conversation that's that's important. So if you think about just your legacy had to say that, you know, it's like, yeah, I could I have a conversation about legacy.

00:47:50:07 - 00:48:12:16
Guy Bloom: What, what what do you think about that? Is your legacy because you spoke about, you know, that the journey that you've been on, you're still a young man. Yeah. So I disagree with that. And, you know, we're not we're not we're not doing, you know, concreting in an industrial setting. So in the roles that we've got we can go for some time.

00:48:12:16 - 00:48:32:01
Guy Bloom: But when you think about legacy for yourself, how do you think about it.
Sharath Jeevan: So I think a few forces. So I'm turning 50 in in a few months. That's one thing. Secondly, I think is that I've got two teenage kids, a 15 year old and 12 year old boy and both wonderful kids. It's of course, like any dad.

00:48:32:01 - 00:48:57:08
Sharath Jeevan: And in France, patient life is all. But I'm trying to see the world really through my kids eyes now. They're super lucky kids, but I think the world is so much harder for their generation. And it was for mine. The economic stability, housing market, geopolitics, all of those kinds of things that are so much more turbulent. I came to realize I've got to start to live in a way that gives them the reins.

00:48:57:12 - 00:49:17:14
Sharath Jeevan: How do I do it in a way that helps them lead the world in the way that they mean them being their generation, lead the world on their terms rather than on my terms? And how do I help accelerate that transition of leadership in the world towards that? So that was a really profound realization. The other second thing, I think, was that I've got to learn to have a beginner's mindset as well.

00:49:17:15 - 00:49:35:12
Sharath Jeevan: And I got very comfortable. I was an education CEO. And back to your probably I was in that archetype, so it wasn't that far off where I knew everyone and knew how things worked. It was very comfortable. I had to keep shaking things up. So I've got into I do some stand up comedy now and writing a novel I did.

00:49:35:14 - 00:49:49:22
Sharath Jeevan: I became a Somali part time one. Of course you did just things that sort of I've always loved doing, but it was also part of it was just trying new things and screwing up. You know, I have to redo a winding sound, right? All these fancy degrees, I have to redo that. So it's tricky to learn new things.

00:49:49:22 - 00:50:08:05
Sharath Jeevan: But I want my kids to see me struggle, and they're going to have to constantly reinvent and and try new things and not be so comfortable and being kind of almost comfortable, being uncomfortable. I think it's something I've learned over the last few years at a very personal level around around legacy. That way around, I really buy into that.

00:50:08:05 - 00:50:28:15
Guy Bloom: I've got two boys and Milo's 14, and I'm trying to be somebody that he looks to. And even in writing the books, in the podcasts, you know, I want him to have a body of work that he can look at. He'll still be. He'll be Milo. He won't be. You know who I want him to be. He'll be the who he wants to be.

00:50:28:15 - 00:51:01:22
Guy Bloom: But giving a kind of a sense of the legacy in either the learning or the role modeling, even my work ethic, you know, just letting him understand that that's what that is. I find that my youngest, Hugo, has autism. And interesting enough with with Milo. I am aware that when he's older, he will have a frame of reference on me that Hugo never really well, he's never going to look at it through that lens.

00:51:01:23 - 00:51:34:11
Guy Bloom: And I think this is quite interesting where I think it's the same at work, where there are those that, you know, will have a point of reference on you and they'll think about you now or maybe in 20 years when they think back on you. And there are others that might not even know how you touch them. There might be others that don't even know that some of the things that have happened to them, that training course that they went on, they might not know that you instigated that a year ago because they only know the trainer, they don't know the decision making or the the battle that went on to get the sign off

00:51:34:12 - 00:52:03:17
Guy Bloom: or it or that. So some of your legacy is known and some of it will never be known. And that's interesting as well that you would do it. Yes. Because you want it to have a known impact. And and you say but also there'll be lots of dominoes that you flick that go off into the world, and you never know where they go, but you just hope if you're doing things or value, they're doing something, I think, I don't know if that's how you say it, but I definitely see it like that.

00:52:03:18 - 00:52:18:06
Sharath Jeevan: I think that idea of some attribution rather than or contribution of attribution, something I've had to deal with as a senior, you know, you feel like everything you want them to turn that line of direct impact. I did X and in the world that you can't control those things, you can be who you are and do everything you can.

00:52:18:06 - 00:52:35:22
Sharath Jeevan: And then there'll be some things that are intended. Some things are unintended, some things you have no idea that have been positive or negative that you are just not aware of. And so I think, you know that idea, I think many of us perhaps had 20 years ago and thought about this great national leader, prime minister president, who would miraculously give us their legacy and national.

00:52:36:02 - 00:53:00:12
Sharath Jeevan: See, it's tricky, as we're seeing in the world right now, right, to believe that with the same hope. I do a lot of work with politics, and I do hope we'll find as a country some some deeper legacy and purpose. But but at the moment, it's challenging. I think it's up to us and is is everyday leaders, if you like, in our organizations, to take that mantle up and do what we can rather than wait for some, you know, Grand Leader to save us as well.

00:53:00:16 - 00:53:18:14
Guy Bloom: And I like that. The idea of contribution versus attribution, one of the things I do and I flip chart is I say with the group, how many people reporting to you rather than how many people report into them. And then I go, right then, how many people do they know? And of course, you very quickly end up at thousands, you know.

00:53:18:15 - 00:53:43:18
Guy Bloom: And so actually, when the experience of you and if we frame it through this legacy, some of it you will see and some of it you will never know. But if Bob or Sandra go home and they are they feel not stressed. They've been shown how to have open and honest, transparent conversations. They might be doing that with her other half or their kids or whatever it is, and you'll never know, right?

00:53:43:19 - 00:54:05:05
Guy Bloom: And that child will never know that actually the environment that you created enable them to have a better home life because their parents came home less stressed and could communicate really well because of the programs you put them on, all the conversations that you had with them. So I think that legacy is actually as an organization. So for me, there's corporate social responsibility.

00:54:05:09 - 00:54:30:00
Guy Bloom: Fine. But then there's just social responsibility. And actually if we do things in a certain way, our legacy can be not that we went to a local school and painted the car park, which is a beautiful thing. But actually, if we create an environment that has legacy in the way I've just spoken about, that's a very powerful that we don't just teaching people to give feedback at work with their now to give feedback.

00:54:30:01 - 00:54:55:24
Guy Bloom: They can have honest conversations with people in life. Wow. There's a value there. Is it that just at that most simplistic, every day boots on the ground level, I get quite interested in that? I think I don't think legacy is about being a nonprofit organization, or you can do almost anything. I think it's legal and ethical, but in that context, like there's so many ways to build it in the construct, in the frame of what you're doing.

00:54:56:01 - 00:55:18:24
Sharath Jeevan: But in a, in a, in a renewed and exciting new way that really makes you distinctive in the marketplace. It attracts the best people, retains the the very best people that leave something, no matter who changes or becomes, CEO, C-suite or whatever as well. So yeah, I think this is something that is a very, everyday, very practical concept, but it just takes that little bit of stepping back and a bit of imagination.

00:55:19:00 - 00:55:52:17
Guy Bloom: Yeah, I love it. So listen, we'll start to come to a close. I just think I, I just think I love this idea of the conversation. And I think very often, sometimes things are task focused and we're looking for an output. But actually sometimes and there are tasks and outputs you can get from this conversation. But I think sometimes you know that senior levels, it's the conversation itself, either with yourself or with others that gives people a sense of, you know, I think sometimes team building isn't going whitewater rafting, though it might be a beautiful thing to do.

00:55:52:17 - 00:56:11:18
Guy Bloom: But actually it's the conversations that we have that I think build the dynamic. And I think this is the kind of stuff that actually cements the team because it's value outside of task. And I think that's that's super powerful. So I love that. And I think we've sort of become task obsessed, task fetishize in a way to build things.

00:56:11:18 - 00:56:31:02
Sharath Jeevan: And I was pushing that narrative. It was so much more than the task. And I think, yeah, I can do a lot of task, but that's not work, right? Work is far more than the task. I think it's more about how do we bring that, that deeply human element of work in, into every organization. I think that is such an urgent priority for leaders now in terms of their legacy.

00:56:31:03 - 00:56:50:21
Guy Bloom: Yeah, I love that. Okay. So listen, thank you so much for taking the time. I really, really appreciated talking to you.
Sharath Jeevan: Thank you. A real pleasure. And yeah, really great to have a deep conversation around this.
Guy Bloom: Perfect. Thanks so much. Cheers. Boom. That's it.

00:56:50:23 - 00:57:03:00
Guy Bloom: That's it. I hope you have enjoyed listening or watching the podcast. If you have, please subscribe and tell people you spreading the word makes a massive difference. And if you'd like to consider working with us, then make your way over to Living Brave.