The Devil Emails At Midnight with Mita Mallick

In this episode of Leadership Bites, Mita Mallick shares her journey from being a bullied child to becoming a champion for inclusion in the workplace. She emphasizes the importance of consistency and discipline in achieving success and discusses how creating inclusive cultures starts at home. Mita highlights the need for respectful conversations in the workplace and the role of leaders in fostering psychological safety. She also introduces her new book, 'The Devil Emails at Midnight,' which explores the archetypes of bad bosses and encourages self-reflection among leaders.

Takeaways

• Mita is on a mission to fix what's broken in workplaces.
• Consistency and discipline are key to success.
• Everyone has experienced a time when they didn't belong.
• Creating inclusive cultures starts at home.
• We need to disagree with kindness and respect.
• Psychological safety is crucial for open conversations.
• Leaders must take ownership of their impact on others.
• Understanding intent versus impact is vital in communication.
• Self-reflection is necessary for effective leadership.
• Mita's new book explores bad boss archetypes and encourages growth.

Sound bites

• "I'm on a mission to fix what's broken."
• "Consistency is my underrated superpower."
• "We all have one toxic habit."

Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
02:58 The Importance of Consistency and Discipline
05:53 Mita's Origin Story and Journey
09:03 Creating Inclusive Cultures Starts at Home
11:52 The Hijacking of Inclusion Conversations
14:38 The Need for Kind and Respectful Conversations
17:40 Psychological Safety in Conversations
20:20 The Role of Leaders in Inclusion
23:19 Understanding Intent vs. Impact
26:24 Mita's New Book: The Devil Emails at Midnight
29:27 Exploring Bad Boss Archetypes
32:26 The Importance of Self-Reflection in Leadership
35:30 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.

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UK: 07827 953814
Email: guybloom@livingbrave.com
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Transcript

Guy Bloom (00:20)
we are. So listen ⁓ meter it is absolutely wonderful to have you on this episode of Leadership Bites Welcome.

Mita Mallick (00:29)
Thank

you, I'm delighted to be here with you today.

Guy Bloom (00:32)
Well, I am as well. I had a little panic attack earlier where I, because of the time zone differences, I hopped on and you weren't there and I was going, my god, what have I done? And while I was going, bloody hell, you can't trust any bugger these days. And then of course it was me, because it usually is. So there we go. Right, so let's get straight into who you are. Somebody met you at a social event and went, ooh.

Mita Mallick (00:40)
I was late, you were cursing me, but here I am.

I've done that, yes.

Guy Bloom (00:59)
What do you do? What would you say?

Mita Mallick (01:02)
Gosh, I don't go to many social events, but let me pretend I'm at one. I would say I'm on a mission to fix what's broken in our workplaces and I'm on a mission to raise kind and inclusive human beings, which is difficult today. And I think every generation of parents probably said the same thing.

Guy Bloom (01:23)
So you are the author of two books. One is Reimagine Inclusion, Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace with Wiley. And I'll make sure there's a link to that. So we'll spend a little bit of time on that. But you have a second book, because you're just showing off now by bringing out a second one. I could only...

Mita Mallick (01:26)
Yes.

That's good. Yes.

yes, here I was. I was showing

it off. There you go. Thank you.

Guy Bloom (01:47)
Hello, look at that boom. that's, I love the title of this, the devil

emails at midnight. I mean, that's brilliant. ⁓

Mita Mallick (01:55)
⁓

thank you.

Guy Bloom (01:55)
what

good leaders can learn from bad bosses but I love that the devil emails at midnight so we'll get some real focus on that I've only got one book I'm very I feel I Dave Ulrich on the podcast the HR guru some years ago and he said something like he's the author of or part author of around 36 books or something like that and I just thought right well clearly while I'm watching telly he's doing another book

Mita Mallick (02:15)
Wow.

While I'm

binging Netflix, yeah. He's on his 37th, 38th, yeah. Wow.

Guy Bloom (02:30)
ridiculous. I

mean, but that's the difference isn't it? While I'm actually faffing about he's cracking on.

Mita Mallick (02:36)
Well, you

bring an interesting point up, which is discipline, right? I always say people ask me how I write books. Half of it is half art and the creativity behind it. And some might say I was born with an innate gift to write, maybe, but half of it's discipline and that consistency of showing up every day to do it.

Guy Bloom (02:52)
Yeah,

I love that. And I've said this a few times on the podcast, somebody said to me, actually guy, the one way of getting a podcast that has some oomph to it is just keep doing them. Because most people won't have the discipline to continue. And if you just do a load, you just will get better. yeah, discipline just is his thing.

Mita Mallick (03:04)
Yes, I love that.

It's true.

Listen, consistency is my

underrated superpower. keep saying consistency, consistency, just like for yourself and your show. Yes.

Guy Bloom (03:20)
Yeah, I like that. And consistency, you know, it's, you know, yeah, it's the, you pick up the stick, you get both ends. So consistency at one end and discipline at the other. And you probably can't have the one without the other, you know, this, so I like that. Yeah, I'm going to write that down and then next, well, you know, and then I'll, I'll, I'll supply it as my own wisdom later on, on a workshop, you know, and people will go, that's why it's worth the money, you know.

Mita Mallick (03:26)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah, I agree with that. That's a good point. Yeah. listen. Okay, Write it down. Love it. Great. Yes. Yes.

Guy Bloom (03:47)
I've only taken one thing away from this keynote guy, consistency and discipline. Okay so let's get a little journey going and just have a sense of how you know to understand where somebody is I think it helps to understand where they've come from so let's just get a little sense of that journey that has got you from being born up a mountain top to where you are today you've just got to get a sense of that kind of that journey.

Mita Mallick (03:50)
It's just so yeah, wonderful.

Yeah.

I will evoke the Marvel origin story, which for me is I'm the proud daughter of Indian immigrant parents. was born and raised in the United States with my younger brother. And I grew up in a time and a place where it was not cool to be Indian. I was the funny looking dark skinned girl who had a long, funny looking braid whose parents spoke funny English until it wasn't funny anymore. And I was bullied a lot, both verbally and physically by my peers. grew up outside of Boston.

And at home, I had a wonderful home life. My parents had an unshakable faith and confidence in me that I would do great things, both for my brother and I. was education at all costs. That was the way to economic opportunity. And they lived in survival mode for most of their lives, having immigrated here and wanted to make sure that they gave us a different life. But that idea of, and whether it's, you relate to my story in the specifics of it.

We all can remember a time where he didn't feel like we belonged, whether it was that kickball team, you didn't make it onto the soccer league, you weren't invited to a friend's birthday, you were left out of a work event, a wedding invite. We all can draw on that. And it's such a horrible feeling. And that has, has really driven me throughout my career. And when I was younger, I was both introverted and painfully shy. didn't have a lot of friends. read and wrote a lot.

I watched a lot of commercials. I was obsessed with commercials, not actually TV. I love a good movie trailer. I spent a lot of time in the grocery store with my mom, really interested in like, you know, who gets to be put on a cereal box and why, who gets to be on a billboard and movie. And I would always think like, who has the power of the pen, whose stories matter, whose stories don't matter. Why don't I see people more like me and stories? And so if you know that about me, that really drew me my entire life, just in terms of storytelling and the power of storytelling.

but also this idea that no one should ever feel like they don't belong. And this idea that I would say, which leads me to the books is that, wow, like I never thought that those bullies from the playgrounds and classrooms would follow me into the conference rooms and hallways of corporate America. It was very naive, right? I thought I'd sort of left that behind. And then you realize you're entering a world of work in many ways wasn't built for someone like me. And so that's been my.

driving force and mission from a very young age and leads me into our conversation here today.

Guy Bloom (06:48)
Wow.

I I love that phrase actually, origin story. I think that's a nice way of saying it. I am. This is going to be the best podcast ever. I'm just going to walk away with takeaways. And in a very different way, I'm Jewish but not practicing. I happen to have been born into the Jewish faith and that's literally as far as it goes for me. However, it was identified when I was at school and I was called the Yid Kid and I was bullied remorselessly for a whole different

Mita Mallick (06:54)
You can write that down too. Yeah. Someone else gave that to me. I won't take credit for that.

Mm.

So sorry to hear that. It's

Guy Bloom (07:20)
reason no no just stuff of of life

Mita Mallick (07:21)
horrible.

Guy Bloom (07:22)
stuff of life but it's interesting it could be at one end it could be skin color one end it could be religion at one end it could be a disability at one end you know there's many reasons it could be your height it could be the fact that you're not that

Mita Mallick (07:31)
Yeah, absolutely.

Guy Bloom (07:36)
attractive looking as a kid it could be. Who knows what it is but there's this whole set of truths for you know your parents can't afford the posh you know the new trainers you know doesn't doesn't matter people are ostracized or alienated and feel isolated for a huge amount of reasons and I think it's a very rare thing that actually there wasn't something for somebody at some point.

Mita Mallick (07:41)
Yes, absolutely.

Yes.

Yes, exactly. Yes,

yeah, and I love what you say. It is anything that I perceive to be different about you or someone else. It's anything that's different that you all of a sudden can sometimes make a target. You know, I said to you earlier, if I was in a bar, one of the things, or at a party, how would I introduce myself? This idea of how you raise kind and inclusive human beings. For me, I don't believe the work of creating more inclusive culture starts at our conference room tables. It starts at our kitchen tables.

It starts at our homes and in communities. And so many ways we think about these things backward. We're racing to create these inclusive cultures at work, but you know, when we walk into the workplace, we come in with history and biases and how we were raised and what we think. And so a lot of it starts at our homes. And so I'm very particular with my children. I try to be, you know, if, somehow they talk about like, Meeda is strange or funny or awkward or weird or

she speaks funny or acts odd sometimes. Whatever kids might say that are innocent, and then you have to sort of stop and say, well, tell me more. Why do you think that? Because I believe innocent jokes and comments, it becomes the gateway to othering, stereotyping, and then eventually hate. And so really to think about how we talk to younger people in our lives and just to be aware of the language we're using and they're using.

Guy Bloom (09:27)
So this is, think, it gets quite interesting. Which is...

pausing to think here, which is I think some things get hijacked and they can take a good thing and turn it into something negative. So let's just take fitness, for example. Fitness is generally accepted as a being a good thing. Now, one version of one person's fitness is another, but if I was gonna say what's fitness, it's your capability to probably live a healthy life and in essence live a life in a manner that doesn't pay

Mita Mallick (09:53)
Yes.

Guy Bloom (10:11)
that doesn't stop you from doing things you want to do and you don't pay for it later. You know, because yeah, you're fine to crack on now, but you died of a heart attack when you were 45 because you kept eating, you know, big breakfasts or something. So whatever. And then what you have is there's a kind of a balance for most people. And then you've got influencers who are looking...

Mita Mallick (10:16)
Yes.

Hmm.

Guy Bloom (10:35)
super lean, super fit and actually it turns out they're taking this and they're taking that and they're not real but they're giving her... So actually that gets hijacked and it puts a stress and it actually makes something less palatable because of the the few that have monetized it, turned it into an industry and even though it might be rooted in truth it's been infected.

Mita Mallick (10:41)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yes.

Mm.

Hmm.

Guy Bloom (11:05)
Now, and I don't think anything escapes that, frankly. So I don't think it's even about this topic, but I think it's an inherent truth that once people latch onto it, there's a distribution curve of humanity, and there's always going to be somebody that does this kind of thing with it. So...

Mita Mallick (11:08)
Yes.

Hmm.

Sure.

Guy Bloom (11:25)
Where does this topic get hijacked? Do you think?

Mita Mallick (11:32)
I love that analogy.

Wow. I'm to write that down now. I'm writing it down. That was really, that was really, I'm thinking about that. Yeah. I mean, I'm sitting in the U S right now. There's global ramifications. I know every part of the world is dealing with a different way, but it is the, it's the woke, the anti-woke, the political, the ap, the apolitical diversity, equity, inclusion, D E and I, we're not allowed to say that anymore. And it is about, yes, now you can't say it. And I think there's for me, two things come to mind is that.

Guy Bloom (11:35)
Bingo, look at that. Look at what we're doing here.

We couldn't not say it at one point and now we're not allowed to say it.

Mita Mallick (12:02)
We've lost the plot when it comes to inclusion in the workplace. And I like how you're talking about the extremes and where we can go. If I work for you, I come to work for a paycheck. Some of us have found a mission and purpose. I want to be seen, recognized, valued. I want to make sure that my contributions matter. Your job as a leader in the company is try to create an environment where I have the ability to reach my potential there and I can do my best work full stop. And that's for everybody, not just for some people, but

workplace for everyone. And we know a lot of things get in the way. And it's interesting when I talk to founders and CEOs and they'll say, well, and I coach them routinely, this seems really political. This seems woke. I can't talk about this. I can't address this. And all of these things we think about black lives matter, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, anti-LGBTQ legislation, xenophobia. can go on and on and hurt and harm happening across the world. And

If you actually knew someone from that community, you would never say that this is politics, right? You would say, gosh, have a friend who's in this community who's being harmed this way. And I'm learning more about their lived experience. Wow. I didn't know that. And all of a sudden you care. It's very different, right? It's very easy to other and put something really far away from you and say, well, that's politics. And really it's in many cases life and death. And in many cases, it's about hurt and harm.

And so I hope more of us are on a journey to just get access to a lived experience that isn't our own. There's a lived experience you don't know about. I want to know more about this. I years ago was really embarrassed that I was born and raised in the United States and I didn't know anyone who was a veteran. I didn't know anyone who had served in our armed forces. And I was like, that's embarrassing. Like I should know more about what it's like to have served and be a veteran. And so I had gone to one of our employee resource groups at this company and

they had connected me with a nonprofit that helped veterans transition into corporate jobs in the U.S. And so I became a mentor there for a few years because I wanted to help guide and learn. So there's many ways to do this. And you might say, well, I can't learn about every lived experience. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, think about one or two things that you're curious about. And you say to yourself, well, I have no idea what it's like to be MEDA or that person. And I'd like to gain some understanding.

Guy Bloom (14:26)
I love that. I think that for me there's something about, I seem to remember, I'm 56, which I know you find remarkably difficult to believe, but I'm 50, 56. And for those of you not watching on a video, I look like I'm 26, but I'm 56. I remember, ⁓ bingo, and I remember a decade ago maybe, maybe a little bit longer, I'm not even sure. I could be on a train and I could strike up a conversation with somebody and...

Mita Mallick (14:34)
No.

I was gonna say 21, but yes.

Guy Bloom (14:56)
I had no anxiety about any form of conversation that we may have and we would have, we would agree, we would disagree and then we'd part and we'd go, well a lovely chat, lovely to admit, la la la. Now, no, no, it's not like that at all now. If you, I mean, I'm sure it is with certain people, but the risk of somebody losing their shizzle very, very quickly.

is so and that's because I think there's something about bit call it social media call it whatever you want the root cause could be one of a few things but there is something where I think the biggest issue isn't the issue because we're talking about this issue perhaps it's actually protecting the conversation rather

Mita Mallick (15:43)
Mm.

Guy Bloom (15:45)
than taking a position. You may have a position, but what I notice is that people want to win the argument. And what that does is it leads to extremes, which means actually I think the one thing that if you think it should be blue and I think it should be green, actually let's both agree on having a high quality conversation. And I think that's the unifying.

Mita Mallick (15:49)
Yes, exactly.

Yes.

Guy Bloom (16:10)
point that is required for these kind of conversations which is let's protect the conversation regardless of our position. Does that resonate with you, Peter?

Mita Mallick (16:13)
I love that. Yes, yes.

It does. And we

have lost the ability to disagree with kindness and respect, not just at the conference room table, but at the kitchen table. And I evoke the famous Stephen Covey quote, which is begin with the end in mind. My unpopular opinion is we should not be having these conversations in the workplace if we are not adults and prepared to have the conversation, which means you sit next to me at work and I want to talk to you about the recent election.

And if I am entering that conversation, recent us election, which is not so recent anymore because we are several months into the next administration, but many months in, but if I entered this conversation thinking that I want to shame blame name, demonize you, I want to say, I'm right. You're wrong. Like my kids do. I'm right. You're right. No, it is too, cause I want to learn about, like you said, the quality of the conversation. Let's protect the conversation. Let me learn something different about you. Let me get a window into.

your experience because every val behind every value and belief we hold every vote we make, there is a story behind that. And so isn't that interesting to understand what that story is and what led you to that decision? And for me then to say, we're going to agree to disagree. Thank you for sharing your perspective and move on. Most of us can't do that. And I always say like abort quickly. If it's going down, if it's spiraling, you say, I'm going to end it right here. I appreciate you sharing. have an email. I have a meeting. I need to

Guy Bloom (17:44)
quickly.

Mita Mallick (17:44)
We've got

abort, abort, abort, right? Just hit that button and run because it's not going to end well. And this is why companies don't want us having these conversations at work because they think many of us can't even do it with our families at the holiday table when we're all getting together, nevermind at work, where with your family, you might get together a few times a year and then you're like, bye, see you later. If I'm getting into arguments with you and you're sitting right next to me, I'm seeing you every day or seeing you on Zoom. It's not that easy. Not that easy at all.

Guy Bloom (18:13)
Yeah,

no, I think that concept of psychological safety is very much around for me the ability for us to have a conversation and for me to walk away better for it even if I think you're completely bonkers.

Mita Mallick (18:23)
Yes.

Right. And if you feel that you aren't ready to do that at work, don't do it. Right. Don't do it. Just don't start it. If you're not in that place where you're saying you're ready to hear and accept and try to appreciate a different perspective. Cause people might say that perspective is hurting and harming me. can't, okay. Well then don't enter that conversation right now. Just don't do it.

Guy Bloom (18:36)
Hmm.

So there's a lot going on there, which a lot of these conversations I have with people on the podcast, go, with a bottle of wine and a pizza, we could be here for some time. Because it's a huge topic with many rabbit holes we could go down.

Mita Mallick (19:01)
Yes, we could.

Yes, there is. Yeah.

Guy Bloom (19:09)
There's something about societal truths, there's something about cultural truths. There's so many little jigsaw pieces to these topics that in some respects it's what makes it so interesting, but also what makes it very difficult to navigate because there's lots of icebergs to ⁓ get around. So in the context of... ⁓

Mita Mallick (19:29)
Yes, there is.

Guy Bloom (19:38)
inclusion. ⁓

Mita Mallick (19:39)
Yes.

Guy Bloom (19:44)
If somebody came up to you and said inclusion, and they kind of nodded, you know, and they went, look, you know, I've read some books and I've read, you know, I've read your book and I've been on courses and it's very complicated and it's almost a little bit the curse of knowledge, isn't it? There's a little bit of a point where...

Not knowing anything means you can't have an opinion and then you know a lot and then you've got a lot of opinions so there's a weird thing about this. But if you were going to say, listen, this is a topic with some complexity and of course with longer, more time we could have a bigger conversation. But in a nutshell, if you want to have inclusion in your family or inclusion in your team or inclusion in your workplace,

Mita Mallick (20:08)
Yeah, sure.

Guy Bloom (20:33)
dot dot dot. What would you say factoring in that there's a lot more that could be said?

Mita Mallick (20:39)
I'll go back to what we said earlier. I'll say two things, which is that you want people to do their best work at work. What kind of environment are you creating? Do they feel seen? Do they feel recognized? The worst times in my career is when I've gone into a job and I'm like, does my boss even know that I exist? Do they make time for me? Which goes to the devil emails at midnight, the boss who never made time for me, except when she dumped her inbox from 10 PM to 2 AM. That was the only time she had for me. So there's that piece. Does this person know that the company cares about them and that they have a place here and that they can actually

Contribute, like you hired me to do a job, let me do the job. I think that's important. I also think stories have the power to move people. So when I work with leaders, I say, what's a time when you didn't feel like you were included? Anytime, just let's stop and think about that. How did that make you feel? What do you remember about that moment? What do you observe? If you could go back to that moment and do something different, would you have? And then who else was around that observed this happening?

Did you wish that someone else would have intervened on your behalf and said something, right? Because it's always easy to say, how did you feel, right? Would you have changed anything if you could go back? In many cases, when we felt that we weren't included, there was at some point, whether it was at the playground or at a conference room table, there were power dynamics at play. And usually a person who's being excluded isn't the person who has the most power in the room, generally.

And so I always am very curious about what's everyone else doing. It reminds me of the New York city subway. When you see something, say something, right? If something is happening in the workplace to someone else, are you going to speak up or are you going to continue to watch it happen? I hate that the burden is placed on the person who's experiencing it. I mean, I've been there many times in my career and I really hope that we spend too much time at work to not look out for each other. That's it.

Guy Bloom (22:30)
It's very interesting that in a time like this where words have to be used so we know what we're talking about and then a word gets empowered usefully or unusually and had a meaning like woke meant something positive and then it went negative and

Mita Mallick (22:36)
Yes.

Yes.

Guy Bloom (22:52)
Some people have been in on the topic from the start and have followed the journey. Others come to it and actually they don't know the history. it's, yeah, because it's, you know, like anything in life, if I talk to somebody in the workshops that I run or I'm coaching, some people, I didn't really know about that. And other people are all over it. So it's an interesting thing I think about sometimes if you use a word because the word empowers you.

Mita Mallick (23:01)
Yes, they don't know the history.

Guy Bloom (23:19)
I think there are words like, know, somebody might feel alienated, they may feel isolated, they might not have a sense of that was fair, you know, it may not have been kind the way that that person was treated, you know, does that person, et cetera. So I think one of the things I'm very keen to do is to say, this is the language of the topic, but it may not be the words that you need to use, because if they come preloaded,

Mita Mallick (23:28)
Sure.

Yes.

Guy Bloom (23:44)
for other people, then utilising them serves nobody. If your intent is to be of service and not to win, I think when you want to win you want to use the words and I want you to agree that those are the right words. If I come with good intentions, then actually I know what I'm referencing, but I may use words that actually don't then trigger...

Mita Mallick (23:52)
Yes.

Yes.

Guy Bloom (24:10)
which is a new word that we now use, but actually I'm using it in the old version of it, they just don't trigger a reaction, regardless of being triggered in verticombers, because actually you don't need to use the vocabulary. And I think I liken that to giving somebody feedback. You can say I want to give you feedback because you want them to know that they're getting feedback. I can also just have a conversation with you what I've seen and I don't need to use the word feedback because I know you may not respond very well to it.

Mita Mallick (24:33)
Yes.

That'll trigger that might, that might trigger.

Yeah. Especially in the workplace. love that.

Guy Bloom (24:39)
Yeah, so I think there is a maturity for me

that is the start is to understand the topic and know the words because you need a point of reference, but I think the adultness is an ability to talk about it and not necessarily hang on or signpost everything through a language which in itself can be its own problem. How does that sit with you?

Mita Mallick (24:46)
Yes.

It makes a lot of

sense. We can chat GPT and Google and research all the things we want. And if we don't understand the language and we start to use it, it's going to come off as very inauthentic, very disingenuous. Can backfire. so use words that you're comfortable with as you're trying to explain. And particularly if you come with good intentions and really think about the impact you're trying to make, most people will understand if you're, if you're

curious and honest and open and even to say, I've said this before, I don't have the right words. Here's how I'm feeling about this situation. And I'd love for your thoughts, like even to be that vulnerable to say, I'm checking in on a team member. I saw this happened in the news. I know your community has been impacted. I don't know what to say. I don't have the right words. If you need me, if I can do anything, I'm here. If you want to take a few hours off, if you want to grab a cup of coffee.

And I wish we had more vulnerability in the workplaces where we could actually say that. Like, I don't have the right words. I don't know what to say, except I want you to know my intention is that I'm hurting for you, or I'm curious about this, or I'm sad, or I'm angry, whatever that is. And just to be open and honest about it.

Guy Bloom (26:14)
I think if things are true, they're inherently true, they may be true with this topic, but let's say somebody's had somebody passed away or they've just been told that they... actually, if something's the right way of approaching somebody...

Mita Mallick (26:20)
Sure.

Guy Bloom (26:26)
if for example somebody in the family's got very ill or passed away. I may not have the words but I want to show good intention. So actually to approach somebody and go I'm probably going to use all the wrong words in all the wrong order but my intention is just to show that I. So these mechanisms aren't necessarily topic specific they're just the inherent truth of approaching somebody.

Mita Mallick (26:31)
sure. Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Guy Bloom (26:49)
with good intention and you're right I think the inherent truth of being vulnerable with listen hey I'm trying to demonstrate so even if my vocabulary is a trigger you look to my intention and I've pre-contracted with you in a very social way just to say hey listen you know this this may already be a problem from the way I'm going to offer it but... bomb bomb yeah very very interesting

Mita Mallick (27:09)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.

Guy Bloom (27:15)
Okay, so first of all, I want to move into your new book, but Reimagine Inclusion, Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace. think that's available on Amazon and I think that is worth a look. I think this is a huge topic and I didn't get you on ready to talk about per se inclusion, but I think just having somebody with your kind of insight, it's worth.

Mita Mallick (27:26)
It is here.

Guy Bloom (27:38)
27 minutes I'm just looking at my clock of anybody's time just to hear you sort of talk around it. And I think the learning of a topic is fine. I think, yeah, the, come in peace and I have my intention. One of the phrases I heard somebody say to me was, who is it for? Who are you doing that for?

Mita Mallick (27:42)
Thank you.

Yeah.

Guy Bloom (28:04)
And I think that's a really, just before we transition out of this, I think that's a very powerful perspective because actually if it's because you want to win or prove a point or gets, know, actually is it for the other person? Because if it's for you, you're not ready to, don't do it yet.

Mita Mallick (28:15)
Hmm.

Don't

do it yet. I talk about this in Reimagined Inclusion in my first book, The Equation of Intent versus Impact. Sometimes we get so wrapped up exactly what you're saying. The intent is, I want to do this for you. I have good intentions. I know this is going to make your life better. I, I, I. And I don't really think about how the impact's going to land because I'm so focused on me and less about you. if I'm going to be honest. And I see this happen in the workplace all day long. I'll give you a very quick example, which is

We, and I worked with a leader on this, there was a standup team meeting every Monday at 8 a.m. And one of the vice presidents, she came to me and says, you know, the CTO has this meeting every Monday at 8 a.m., but I have dropped my son off at school and I don't want to do this meeting. And so I was like, we'll go and approach him and talk to him about it. And his solve was to say to her intent impact, don't come to the meeting. It's totally fine.

I'll send you the notes afterwards. It's easier for him to keep it at eight. But what did that make her feel like? Well, no, I want to come to that meeting. I didn't say I didn't want to come. I just said, this doesn't work for my schedule. Can we move it? And so there's so many examples of that where the intent, and I actually am thinking I'm doing something good for you. Well, no, no, no, it's okay. Don't worry about this meeting. Yes, of course. Go drop your son off at school. You can look every week at the Google doc and get the notes and she's, well, no, I actually want to be in this meeting. The team's also there. I need you to move it.

And by the way, I'm not the only one who can't make this time. So examples like that all the time. And I love that you brought that up in that question. Who are we doing it for is so important. And if it's just for us, game over, pause, reset, and be ready to think about the impact of the other person before you start the conversation or take whatever action you're thinking of taking.

Guy Bloom (29:49)
Hmm.

Yeah,

yeah, and I think asking somebody what do you want to have as an outcome doesn't mean you're gonna get it, but it does mean I'm gonna ask because I might give you all of it, I might give you a percentage of it, but actually even if I say, okay, I get it, no.

Mita Mallick (30:13)
Yes.

Yes.

Guy Bloom (30:27)
What I've had done though is demonstrated that I've shown interest and I'm curious and I'm trying to make sense of your perspective. And I think some people fear asking because then they think they've got to do it. And I think that's the maturity step. The asking what do you want has nothing to do with the fact that you're going to get it. But it is, as long as it's genuinely curious and with the intention that if I can I will. However, if I can't, we'll have an honest conversation about it. That's okay.

Mita Mallick (30:31)
Yes.

It is,

Absolutely. mean, it's like most of our workplaces, they're not democracies. Neither is my household as a parent. It's not a democracy. Like you take the feedback. And it's also, that is the job of the leader. That's the hard job. You hear things you don't want to hear. When this not a, I said that to my son the other day, this is not a democracy. I'm sorry, not in our household. So right, I'll take the feedback and I will evaluate it. And yes, it's so important. I want to understand how this might impact you because it actually might change.

Guy Bloom (31:03)
Yes. Well to the kids, when did this become a democracy?

Yeah.

Mita Mallick (31:20)
decision I make because I wasn't putting myself in your shoes. wasn't thinking about how you might react to this very good deed. Very, very good deed I thought I was doing.

Guy Bloom (31:27)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah. So maybe one of the biggest things is it is the psychological safe, the emotional safe to say, you offering is going to have one of three things happen. It'll reinforce my position. Yes or no. I'll calibrate my position. You know, or there'll be, sorry, or there'll be a yes or no. And I think that's okay. Yeah. And I think there's a clarity and an openness in not confusing me offering it.

Mita Mallick (31:41)
Yes.

Guy Bloom (31:57)
with an a no meaning I've not been heard. As long as I can demonstrate to you you have been heard, I call it giving somebody a damn good listening to, which is this idea of you feeling heard. And actually that becomes extra important if the likelihood is I'm going to say no. Okay, very interesting. So let's move on. ⁓

Mita Mallick (31:59)
Yes, exactly.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Guy Bloom (32:20)
We, you, we, like I had nothing to do with it. You have a book coming out. Bingo, yeah, exactly. I think September, I think. Yep, September the 30th. ⁓ The Devil Emails at Midnight, best title ever. What good leaders can learn from bad bosses. Now, why would I get interested in that? Why would I go onto Amazon and pre-order? ⁓

Mita Mallick (32:25)
Well, you have me on your show, so thank you to discuss.

Yes, September 30th.

I've been a bad boss and chances are so have you. And I think too much of the conversation and I've been part of it about how we fix what's broken in our workplaces is how do you survive the toxic boss? How do you survive the toxic workplace? The number one direct message I get from people, the DM is usually a painful story of something that's happening to them at work. And then how do I survive this situation and this boss and what I'm going through? And I had this moment where I thought to myself, what if we are the person who's causing hurt and harm?

And in the book, have extreme versions. have 13 archetypes. I include myself. have extreme versions of three bosses who really affected my mental health. Some of these individuals though, you know, my toxic habit is micromanaging, which could swing back and forth. And so if we each thought about, well, what if I looked in the mirror and I am the person who has a toxic habit, who's showing up at work? And what if we all have one toxic habit, one bad habit? How does that impact our workplaces? And so I would love the conversation.

to shift for leaders to have more ownership on how they're showing up versus us all trying to scramble and survive the leader or endure it, which I've definitely had to do.

Guy Bloom (33:58)
One of the more senior people that I work with, as has happened over the years, what's very interesting of course is when you're right at the top of that food chain, you have a lot of things telling you that you're right. And the chances are you are right more often than not because that's why you got there. And one of the things I have is this idea of however.

Mita Mallick (34:11)
Yes.

Guy Bloom (34:23)
which is think of somebody that you really, really like and you go, Bob's fantastic. However, you've got to be careful around, everybody's got a however. Even the person that you really think is awesome, you go, she's absolutely amazing. However, just be careful when it's the end of the month when it comes to the profit and loss, because she does get all, however, just, you know, when his kids are staying at home and he can be a little bit.

Mita Mallick (34:33)
Yeah, we all do. All do.

Guy Bloom (34:51)
It doesn't matter, but we've all got a however. And to presume that you haven't is a massive level of probably self-reflection. So there's something about if I read this book, which I can't read yet, but when I do read this book, the chances are I'm going to recognize...

elements of myself probably you know each if each one had a sliding scale of 0 to 10 whatever that might look like the chances are I'm going to go probably not but even if it's occasionally there's going to be things in there yeah I only go through 13

Mita Mallick (35:21)
Yes.

Hmm. That's the point. Yes. And I've only go, I only go through 13 bad boss archetypes. There's more.

There's more, right? Of course there's more people read this and you didn't do this. You Yeah, of course. That's the whole point. You can then start thinking about the things I didn't include, but, that's the conversation to say, I've read this. Now I'm thinking about the one thing I need to work on and then to share it with someone else that works with you, works on your team, and then start to think about it's not boiling the ocean, but what are things you're going to do?

One thing every day to think about how you're going to monitor how you're behaving in the workplace. Yes, it will. Maybe it will be. There we go. I'll write that down. SQL.

Guy Bloom (36:02)
And that can be book two, another 13 things that...

sequel, another 13. So if I read this book, how is it created in terms of perspective? Is it part narrative? Is it facing into each one of the 13 with things to deal with or to reflect on? What will I experience when I read it?

Mita Mallick (36:23)
Yeah.

So

when I was constructing the book about a year and a half ago, and this is still true in the marketplace today, non-fiction sales, I think now are even more in decline, fiction skyrocketing from a reading perspective for all the reasons that you would suspect. People are looking for escapism for all the things that are happening in our world today. And so I wanted to write a business book that would draw people in, in a different way. My first book was serious and funny and was click bait for a reason.

and well researched. This book is also well researched, but it's also drawing people in with stories. mean, the devil emails at midnight, a title like that in the nonfiction section, you're like, what, even the cover, right? Evokes like, huh, wow. And so I wanted people to pick it up and read it. And so every chapter opens with the story of a bad boss. I once upon a time endured, I've changed all the details. I don't want to shame people or blame people or name them. mean,

I'm sure many of these people are now good leaders and I hope so, but I share a pretty hilarious or heartbreaking story. And then we go into the, so what do we do about this? Why does this happen? Why do we micromanage? Why do we macro manage? Why do we let disengaged employees stay? How does this affect our workplaces? So it is a business book ultimately, but this idea of, think, how do we bring more powerful storytelling?

into the world of business to get people interested in reading business and to walk away and say, I learned something and now I'm going to actually show up to work to try to do better and be better.

Guy Bloom (38:00)
What are the 13? Can you list for

Mita Mallick (38:11)
Yeah, I can read the table of content. Should we do that quickly? Wow, okay. Chapter one, the boss who never had time for me except at midnight. Chapter two, the boss who didn't want to call me by my name, so he renamed me Mohammed. That's about microaggressions in the workplace. The boss who, in case you didn't, or racist, racist, right? I'll say microaggression, but, or racist and completely offensive and inappropriate, yeah.

Guy Bloom (38:13)
That would be awesome.

Is that a microaggression or just damn right aggression?

Mita Mallick (38:39)
The boss who fell asleep in almost every meeting. The boss who hovered like a helicopter and enjoyed redoing all of our work. Chapter five, the boss who cried wolf because everything was urgent. Chapter six, the boss who ruled with fear perched on her throne, clutching tightly to her throne, to her crown. This is the boss who threw a Chanel shoe at my colleague. True story. Chapter seven, the boss who punished me for being pregnant. Chapter eight, the boss who is incredibly kind and completely incompetent at his job.

Chapter nine, the boss who was filled with toxic positivity. Chapter 10, the boss who loved gossiping about everyone. Chapter 11, the boss who loved the spotlight and took credit for all of the work. Chapter 12, the boss who questioned my loyalty and called me a rat. He's called Tony Soprano. All the bosses have nicknames in the book for a reason. And chapter 13 is me, the boss who was grieving and couldn't show up for her team. I talk about when I lost my dad suddenly in 2017 and the impact that had on me and my team.

Guy Bloom (39:39)
I think that's a really... Those are some cracking titles. I've got this horrible fear that apart from the last one it's all the same person.

Mita Mallick (39:44)
thank you.

Yeah, no, they're they're actually

they're all different people. But yeah, I didn't nickname myself when you read it, you'll see.

Guy Bloom (39:55)
So if, Meeta, tell me about then, because I'm, yeah, I think that's, I'm all over this, I can't wait to get stuck into it. But tell me about your working life in the sense of just, people wanted to interact with you, what would they reach out to you specifically for?

Mita Mallick (40:15)
Well, hopefully you get the book, The Devil Emails at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses, Amazon, independent bookstore, wherever you buy books. You can find me on LinkedIn. I actually really like meeting new people, so DMs are great. And meet them at malik.com. Yeah.

Guy Bloom (40:29)
And what is it that I would interact with you for? Not how would I do it? What would I be? Is it workshops? Is it coaching to bring to a life why I would engage with you?

Mita Mallick (40:38)
Sure, I'm

a workplace strategist, so I do a lot of executive one-on-one coaching, I do a lot of group coaching, I do a lot of work with exec teams, workshops, keynotes, range of offerings that I have.

Guy Bloom (40:51)
and you're based where?

Mita Mallick (40:53)
in New Jersey, the great state of New Jersey in the U S.

Guy Bloom (40:57)
OK.

So listen, I'm going to put all contact details. ⁓ do you have a... Did you say your website? OK.

Mita Mallick (41:05)
MitaMalek.com. Yes.

Guy Bloom (41:07)
sure that's all connected and there for you. So listen, know, this has been, I think, a great sense of two books, both of which I think are valuable enough for me to want to get you on the podcast and talk about. I think you're very engaging. I think it's clear that you've got an energy and an insight into this topic, which I think really resonates. So I've really enjoyed that. So for me and for everybody that's listening, Mita, I just want to say thank you so much for being with us.

Mita Mallick (41:22)
thank you.

Thank you for having me on the show. appreciate it.