Leadership BITES
Leadership BITES
Kyle McDowell, Begin With WE
In this episode of Leadership Bites, Kyle McDowell shares his transformative journey from a corporate leader to an author and speaker. He discusses the importance of care in leadership, the hunger for a better work environment, and the principles that guide effective leadership. The conversation delves into the significance of trust, relatability, and the concept of 'We' in fostering a positive organizational culture. Kyle also introduces the 10 We's framework, which serves as a guide for leaders to create a thriving workplace. In this conversation, Kyle McDowell discusses the foundational principles of leadership that can transform teams and organizations. He emphasizes the importance of doing the right thing, leading by example, and fostering a culture of accountability and challenge. The discussion also touches on the human element of leadership, the resistance to change, and the significance of commitment in embedding these principles into an organization's culture. Kyle shares insights on how these principles can lead to personal and professional growth, ultimately creating a more engaged and effective team.
Takeaways
- Kyle transitioned from a corporate leader to an author and speaker.
- His upbringing instilled a strong work ethic and teamwork values.
- Apathy in the workplace can lead to a desire for change.
- The decision to write a book stemmed from a need for a better way.
- Feedback from colleagues inspired him to share his leadership principles.
- Care in leadership is crucial for building trust and loyalty.
- Relatability is key to establishing trust in leadership.
- The concept of 'We' emphasizes collective success over individualism.
- The 10 We's framework provides actionable principles for leaders.
- Transformational leadership can create a positive impact on teams. Leadership principles are simple but not easy to implement.
- Doing the right thing always is foundational to leadership.
- Leading by example sets the tone for team behavior.
- Accountability is crucial for team dynamics and success.
- Embracing challenge fosters innovation and growth.
- Details can differentiate between good and great experiences.
- Cultural change requires commitment from all levels of leadership.
- Resistance to change often stems from past disappointments.
- Creating a supportive environment is essential for team success.
- Leadership is about valuing and connecting with people.
Sound Bites
- "It's a beautiful thing."
- "I care about you."
- "I trust you."
- "You don't have to go to dinner."
- "The concept of 'We' is essential."
- "We do the right thing always."
- "We lead by example."
- "We own our mistakes."
- "We embrace challenge."
- "Details are not just the details."
- "We want to add value, be valued."
To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.
The link to everything CLICK HERE
UK: 07827 953814
Email: guybloom@livingbrave.com
Web: www.livingbrave.com
Guy Bloom (00:00.771)
Without the countdown obviously, you know, we wouldn't know what we're not exactly. So on that note Kyle, it is fabulous to have you on this episode of Leadership Bytes. Welcome.
Kyle (00:02.855)
We're not. Right. Right.
Kyle (00:12.187)
Guy, it's so good to be here. Thank you for having me, man. Great to see you.
Guy Bloom (00:16.948)
And you know, I say this to absolutely everybody because I fear just messing it up on somebody else's behalf. But people may not know who you are. There might be a couple of people left that haven't heard of you. So if you're at a barbecue and somebody said to you, all right, mate, what do you do? What would you tell the world what you do?
Kyle (00:38.183)
Well, I love the question because just two, maybe three short years ago, the answer was entirely different. So today in that picnic, I'm going to say I'm an author, I'm a speaker and a leadership coach, probably in that order. But just three years ago, I was a 30 year veteran of the corporate world, leading tens of thousands of employees at multiple Fortune 10 firms. So I've made quite the pivot over the last few years.
Guy Bloom (01:06.04)
So I always believe that it's helpful just to hear somebody's journey, just to contextualize where they're coming from and what their context is. So just, you know, in a manner that you feel comfortable doing, just give us that sense of, guy, I was born on the top of a hill with no electricity or running water and I taught myself to speak and whatever it is, give us that journey. Bingo.
Kyle (01:29.415)
You clearly have read my bio. That's how we got where we are. No, man, I would venture to guess like so many members of your audience. began my, I'll start with the professional side. Actually, I'll start with the personal side because I think it informs who we are professionally. I was raised middle-class at best in a very, very rural area. had cow pastures across the street from us and woods behind us.
I grew up in a place called Plant City, Florida, which is the strawberry capital of the world. That's how we hail. And to say we were middle class at best is really kind of how I would characterize my upbringing, but it was really the profound impact that both of my parents had on me from a work ethic and an outcomes perspective. Both of my parents were sales driven folks. They were both 100 % commission.
They taught me very early on that if you want something, you have to put in the work. just had nothing will be handed to you in this life. So with that in mind, my first job at 15 was bagging groceries. And then I worked as a camp counselour from the age of like 16 through 18 during the summers. So that kind of laid the foundation for me on leadership between that and being a very athletic kind of sports driven guy growing up. Those two components.
you working at an early age, but also understanding the value of teamwork and inspiring others to be the best they can be with something I kind of observed early, early on. And when we shifted the professional side, man, no different than so many others, I began really humbly. I started off in a cubicle the size of a bathroom stall. And it was, I had just turned 18 for a local bank here in Florida.
And I just managed to methodically work my way up the corporate ladder, ultimately to a point where, as I mentioned, I was leading tens of thousands of employees, P &Ls in the billions, offices in nearly every state of the country. And then of course I had international operations for which I was also responsible. But I will tell you, man, and I think this is hopefully where part of our conversation goes is, as my titles became sexier as my
Kyle (03:45.863)
as my offices became corner offices and my jokes somehow got funnier with every promotion as well. The only thing that matched those qualities or characteristics would be the level of apathy that I began to feel. And it was probably around year 22, 23 of my career where I just started to ask a whole lot of questions that I was scared to ask before and primarily they were all revolving around, is there a better way?
Is there better way or should we all just kind of loathe the environment we're in every day and just kind of feel so apathetic that we've given up hope that the optimism and the excitement and the passion to do big things that we all carried with us into the workplace, we lose that over time. And I was no different, which is what really resulted in me driving or changing the path of my career, writing the book and become a USA Today and Wall Street Journal bestseller.
Guy Bloom (04:42.646)
So that's always a fascination because I wrote a book and it didn't become a bestseller. So I'm always intrigued by what it is. And I think, when people write things, you know, the intention is there, but you don't know how these things are going to go. I I suppose you have expectation. So what was that part of you that went, do know what? I'm going to write a book. Because I think intellectually it's an easy thing to say.
Kyle (04:48.327)
You
Guy Bloom (05:12.76)
but normally everybody I speak to, you know, there's a hardship involved in that. So just walk me through that, stepping stones for you about, know, I'm going to do this.
Kyle (05:23.239)
Well, first of all, congratulations on yours. Because I know the, I think I know anyway, the path that you travelled. And it's not fun. It's not an easy process. And in terms of expectations, you hit the nail on the head, man. When I decided to write the book, I didn't tell anybody for a little while. And the first person I told was my wife. And I remember telling her vividly, if I were to sell a thousand copies of this book, I'll be over the moon. That was the goal. And it's caught on.
It's caught on and now we're up to about 40,000 units sold, which is it's mind bending to me, but it's less about me and more about I'm now convinced where I had a theory and I'm now convinced there is this hunger for a better way. There's this hunger for a different environment. We don't have to just exist inside of our roles, whatever it is that we do for a living, we can actually thrive. But all of this came about where the decision was ultimately made started.
probably back in 2017, 2018. So I'd become so disenfranchised with the whole machine that I made the decision to step away. I was going to leave corporate America for probably, well, I didn't know. just knew I was a lucky guy. I'd set aside a few bucks and I was able to just kind of figure out what I wanted to do. What I wanted to do when I grew up, that's probably the best way of saying it. But I made a commitment to myself at that point. If I was going to go back into the fray and lead a big organization, I was going to do it very differently. I had the recipe for apathy and I knew if I wanted
different outcomes and to feel different and maybe reconnect with some of that lost passion, I had to do things differently. I was presented with a role that would require me to leave 15,000 people, 11 locations. was a $7 billion program. And the night before I was gonna meet, it's probably 30, 45 days into my role, the night before I was gonna meet with the top 40 or 50 leaders of that organization, I just put pen to paper. I mean, literally to fingers to keyboard.
And I just went through 20 years of history, like what scenarios made me feel less than valued? What scenarios drove me crazy when I was trying to get things done, but just had internal conflict among, inside the organization, cross-functional conflict, leaders operating inside of silos and not really looking out for one another. And a couple hours went by and guy, was left with 10 sentences. And each of those sentences began and still do begin with the word we, which is the foundation and creation of the 10 whee's.
Kyle (07:46.663)
If you fast forward a few years later, those principles have become, well they were before I even left the organization, but the manifesto for that team, you know, some 15,000 people. They have the 10 We Awards, they have, the We's are a part of their annual performance process. They recognize and reward people throughout the year who are caught, air quotes, caught embracing and living these principles. And it was when I left that organization to go join another firm, I started to get phone calls from my old team saying,
When are going to write this book, man? And I thought, no shot, no way. I'm not an author. I enjoy writing, but I'm not going to write a book. It's just not happening. you know, everything happens for a reason. And I left that subsequent firm, had a little time on my hands. I had a non-compete, so I had to sit on the bench for a little while. And I thought, OK, man, if you're the guy evangelizing these principles and you're so proud of the impact you've had on this one organization, you're go back into that fray, or are you going to take the mission more broadly? And that was the choice that I made.
that resulted in the book and I'm busier than ever on stage now. So it's just been a whole series of events that have been, I've been so fortunate to experience, but the underlying fortune is watching and being a part of bosses transforming into leaders and having a greater impact than they thought they could have.
Guy Bloom (09:06.808)
So I'm loaded with questions, but I do just want to pick up on one or two others, is, don't know about you, but when somebody goes, I've read your book. Are you still kind of like, I don't know, just, I don't know, because you're not per se a global phenomenon. yes, it never gets old. That's the phrase, isn't it? I get very excited about it. I do have a face that goes, that's amazing. But inside I'm going, woo hoo.
Kyle (09:23.407)
It never gets old, dude. It never gets old. Let's keep it. It never gets old. Yeah.
Kyle (09:36.635)
Well, I fought that at first, man. remember having, I remember people quoting lines from the book early on. happens occasionally, it happens pretty regularly now. I'll be, I'll get an email or a note through my website and folks have, they're really, really generous in sharing their stories, which is so, powerful. And I started, I tried to do that cool guy thing where I was like, yeah, okay, you know, cool. I'm glad it's had an impact, but now I'm just like, hey, my cup is filled because you reached out today.
Guy Bloom (09:36.694)
You
Kyle (10:06.053)
You've made my day reaching out and I've made the commitment to myself then as well. I hope I never get tired of that type of feedback and I'm challenging myself to always remember when the book wasn't selling right out of the gate and then this hockey stick growth has happened and I am grateful for that. So for anyone that reaches out, they're new friend of mine.
Guy Bloom (10:32.024)
So was there a defining moment that...
took you from.
My defining moment to actually activate the book was when I was at a conference and somebody was speaking and they gave a book out and I read some of that book that evening and I went down to breakfast the next day with my then boss, gentleman called Mark Janssen, knows who he is, I talk about him a lot, and I went, this book's rubbish, and he looked at me and he went, it might be, says, but it's better than yours.
Kyle (11:04.131)
wow.
Guy Bloom (11:06.094)
As in, and that was my moment of, yes, very well, but I'd better then either shut up or actually write the thing. So did you have a, because I understand the inherent set of motive. Was there a moment where you actually went click?
Kyle (11:24.059)
Man, there were a series of moments when I started to get those phone calls from former colleagues, by the way, many of whom I still have one-on-ones with, I still meet with on a consistent basis just to check in. I've always thought it was odd that someone kind of pretends to care about you and your growth and your development until you leave their team. So it rings hollow to me. I remember two moments are jumping out. The first is,
As many leaders probably struggle with, when I introduced the principles and they kind of resonated the way that they did, I wasn't convinced because here's the new guy with these new principles and everybody wants to endear themselves to the new boss. So they're going to say things that they may not mean, a little brown nosing perhaps. But there was a woman on the team who I grew to genuinely love. Her name is Lori. Just like you talk about Mark, I talk about Lori among others. And one time,
I remember asking her, this real? We'd gotten to the point where I could be completely transparent with her. I said, are you guys just, am I full of shit or is this really working? And she got a little terse with me. She's like, stop, you've created something. You've created something really beautiful and it's working here. Run with it. That's the first example because she's someone, she's got a few years on me. I looked up to her in many ways because of her, just her demeanour, her professionalism.
her intelligence, I just think the world of her. hearing it from her was a big deal. And the other is one of the more difficult people that was on the team who really didn't buy in initially, she was sceptical of me and she made it known. She was very, in hindsight, she won't admit to being difficult on purpose. At the time, it certainly felt like she was difficult on purpose. And there's a series of challenges that she issued to me. And I think the way that I won her and others over is kind of eaten.
or taking my own medicine. But when the book was finished and I was still in that 1,000 book or 1,000 copies sold goal, I remember calling Julia and I said, hey man, I'm thinking about naming the book. And I gave her a couple of names. said, but one name that we're really focused in with the publisher is Begin With We. I have chills telling the story. She reacted immediately and said, that's it. I said, well, why is that it, Julia? She said, because that's what you did with us.
Kyle (13:46.907)
You didn't come in talking about all the things that you had done and the value you were going to bring. You talked about setting expectations. You talked about how if we start internally behind the curtains and we care about each other and look out for one another and follow these principles, we'll find levels of fullfillment we've not found.
So my biggest critic went to the biggest champion. And for me, that is the most humbling of things. And I'm grateful for that conversation. I remember it like it was yesterday.
Guy Bloom (14:17.39)
So I'm going to jump into the essence of the book a little bit. So, of course.
Kyle (14:22.757)
Hey guy, can I jump in real quick though? I'm really curious why you talk about Mark a lot.
Guy Bloom (14:29.152)
So, I mean, that's a big meal and a bottle of wine in many respects for me. the main reason is, and this is one of the reasons you're on the podcast in many respects, because that title does resonate. I think Mark, Mark Jansson, if you're listening, I think Mark, I think he embodied that way of thinking that
Kyle (14:35.175)
I'm good with both by the way.
Kyle (14:49.927)
Shout out Mark.
Guy Bloom (14:58.22)
You know, he was an entrepreneur, it was his business. All the skin was in the game in terms of him financially. But he was one of those people that managed to balance a deeply commercial mindset, absolutely driven, but also incredibly emotionally intelligent. And my example for that would be when somebody said to me, what's it like working for Mark? I said, well.
Here's the thing. He is absolutely happy for you to almost work yourself to death. But at the same time, he cares about you deeply. And that's because we're in an, you know, it's an entrepreneurial business. It's not some steady state 50 year old business. Every month is a month that's got to be achieved. So there's no place for sitting back and so everybody's got to be giving their all.
He's trying to get the absolute best out of you. And yet he deeply cares for you. And somehow that created the we of the culture. That not everybody had to be friends, not everybody had to get on, but you had to have a care for each other. So before I, you know, and also he should have sacked me at least three times. Right?
Kyle (16:12.231)
That's right.
Kyle (16:20.039)
There's an interior quality there, right?
Guy Bloom (16:24.206)
And there are a few times where he would go, do you know what, Guy? If it wasn't for the fact that I didn't like you. But my point is that, you know, and so within that was probably forgiveness. Within that was probably being able to look beyond maybe an action and actually see where can I take this and will you learn and will you be vulnerable and go, me a culprit, my fault? All those things. So yes, I think there's a lot, even though that vocabulary wasn't the one being used.
Kyle (16:46.193)
Beautiful.
Guy Bloom (16:53.582)
It is indicative of why I, if he, well he rang me up a year ago, he's got an organisation and said I need a keen, I went yes. You know, I haven't asked you yet, it doesn't matter. Because back to your point, a decade on, right, it's still there, it's not relative to the fact that I report into him, it was the connection to the humour being.
Kyle (17:04.987)
Yep. Yep.
Kyle (17:16.519)
It's a beautiful thing, And if I may, one other question. When you said he cares, how do you know? How did you know before this many years have elapsed and you've become kind of personal friends since then? Maybe you were then as well. How do you know he cared?
Guy Bloom (17:31.054)
Hmm.
Guy Bloom (17:34.585)
Well, I don't think we were personal friends. You know, I wasn't around his house. Yeah, I wasn't around his house for dinner. And I'm not probably that kind of person per se anyway. But that's not the point. He, I think the caring came from his desire, taking away the commercials and what he was trying to achieve. His desire for you to...
Kyle (17:37.735)
Okay, even better.
Guy Bloom (18:04.13)
be better. And his willingness to live with your failure, if you failed either because of your will or your motivation or because of your, even your competence. Now don't get me wrong, if you're consistently incompetent then Houston we have a problem. Right, if you consistently can't get with the party we have a problem. But when you're somewhere for 10 years or whatever it might be, you're not
Kyle (18:12.315)
Mm.
Guy Bloom (18:33.644)
sort of at peak every moment and every day. So I think there's something about when you were good, he understood that you sometimes came off the boil, but also as the organization got bigger, that kind of Peter principle of if you're not careful, you'll be operating at your own level of incompetence. He was willing to work with you while you worked with yourself to get through
that barrier of, the effort I was putting in yesterday, which made me a high performer, isn't necessarily the effort that I need today to remain a high performer. And or, you know, lots of other variables like that. So that's how I think I knew he cared.
Kyle (19:23.121)
Really, really cool. So when did you start? How long has it been since you've worked with Mark?
Guy Bloom (19:28.846)
Probably and he'll know for sure I'm sure but probably about nine or ten years. Yeah. Yeah and I'll be using this point of reference you know to my you know 30 years from now to somebody that'll listen I'll be going hey here's the example of. Yeah definitely. Yeah absolutely.
Kyle (19:36.871)
And here we are talking about.
Kyle (19:48.167)
What an impact. What an impact. Yeah. Thank you. Because I remember I was probably in, I was in the workforce for more than two decades before I had a leader of mine literally lean in and say, I care about you. And I'd never had, I'd never even been left with that impression. No one's words nor actions really sent that message to me. And there was a gentleman I worked for
reported to and we've become really great friends since then because of the respect that we have for one another. But I remember a time, man, when I was, my mother was at the end of her road of a nearly a year-long battle with cancer and we had a one-on-one scheduled and I walked into William's office. Your mark is my William in many ways. And he asked for some updates and I jumped right into the business updates and he kind of interrupted me but in a very
diplomatic way and said, how are you doing? And I said, what do mean, man? I'm good. I'm just running you through, know, these are things that I have documented that I want to share with you today. And he said, no, no, no, no, how are you doing? How are you doing? And I still a little flat footed and he leaned in and he said, I'm only asking because I care. It's like, headspin, totally not expecting this. That was in 2009.
And it from that moment forward, thought, well, why wouldn't you tell somebody you care about them if you do? Why wouldn't you? And from that moment forward, I made the commitment to myself and I try to live up to it. When I appreciate someone, I say, man, I appreciate you. When I care about someone, I said, I care about you. I try to be as vocal and conspicuous with those comments because that's how we create trust and loyalty. And I'll run through a wall for this guy. And as a result, I think he will for me as well.
Guy Bloom (21:45.145)
Fascinated by this actually because I I notice that in leadership development and in this space there's a distribution curve of how people come at it. one of, and by the way this isn't a podcast where we have to agree with each other right? But it's, but I'll offer you a perspective, I'll offer you a perspective where if your eyeballs roll back in your head I'll go ha ha, but, which is this.
Kyle (22:04.582)
the worst.
Kyle (22:12.079)
getting somewhere.
Guy Bloom (22:12.718)
We're going somewhere. Which is, I hear people talk about, for example, love in leadership. And it makes my eye twitch because I go, OK, there's a distribution curve. And at that end, if that's your language and that's the way you are, that's absolutely a beautiful thing. But I also deal with a lot of executives where, actually, they may not in any way have even emotional
connections or feelings for, let alone people at the three levels down who they've never met, all the way through to direct reports who they work with. It's just the way that they're wired. However, I think there is something about having a sense of a duty of care, which allows me to care, even if I don't, in verticombers, care. Does that make sense when I say that to you?
Kyle (23:07.251)
100 % and it reminds me of a question I'm asked a lot, are leaders born or made? Because not necessarily everybody is this charismatic, vulnerable, egoless leader that we would all like to be while still delivering fantastic results. My answer is great leaders, impactful leaders come in all shapes and sizes and it's those that can inspire you. You have some type of connection and trust. The one thing that you mentioned that got my attention just
Just a moment ago when you said, you work with executives who just don't have that in them, that lack of this thing, whatever it is, does not prohibit you from looking after people, from not helping develop them. You don't have to go to dinner. You don't have to have beers. You don't even have to say, I appreciate you, although it really helps. It's when we can have some sense of relatability. So while I may not be the charismatic leader that you
maybe you hoped to have, or maybe I behave in a way that's different in how you would approach any given scenario, but I can relate that you want to be successful. And I can relate that you care that we are successful as a team. When we have relatability, I think it's one of two main ingredients to land on trust, authenticity and relatability in my mind equal trust. So when I have that bit of relatability, even if we disagree on how we get there, we disagree on the approach, disagree on the messaging,
That's who you are authentically and I can relate to the message, not how you're saying it and not necessarily your method for getting there. I trust you. I trust you. And I think that's where a lot of folks get it wrong is they feel as if they have to portray this image of perfection and they know everything and they have all the answers, which creates this lack of relatability. And no one wants to follow someone that pretends to have all the answers. Why would I? You don't need me. You have it all.
Guy Bloom (25:01.39)
Yeah, and I think that's true. I talk about trust, accountability, bravery and connection. And in the connection element, one of the things I talk about is it's not necessarily about eye contact and put your mobile phone away when you're talking to somebody, which is a great starting point. What it really is for me is the willingness to contribute to the needs of others outside of your own need. And that doesn't mean I like you. Right? And I...
Kyle (25:23.333)
leadership brother.
Facts, that's right. I may actually loathe the idea of spending time with you outside of work. You may never know that because I'm still focused on your growth development and how we can collectively achieve stuff. Well said, I appreciate that.
Guy Bloom (25:42.455)
Yeah, I like this we element, which is for me, I do it at most groups that I work with. I can you tell which one of you I don't like? And of course, the answer is no. And said, well, and that's because I don't necessarily like or dislike any of you, because actually what's I call them umbrella beliefs. It's a belief that's bigger than the scenario that I'm in, which is my belief is in the sense that it would be we right? We need to do good work here.
Kyle (25:51.719)
Wow.
Guy Bloom (26:10.67)
What I want to do is to contribute excellence to you, which actually is bigger than my individual relationship with your characters. And I think that's what I pick up in where you come from.
Kyle (26:23.975)
Home run, home run. And in some cases, man, it's just math. here's what I mean by that. And I use an American football metaphor. So the head coach in the NFL is responsible for leading a 53-man active roster. There's a reason he has assistant coaches. There's a reason there are position experts and coaches at each position. Because there's no way mathematically that one person can bring the most and best out of every single person.
But that person, the leader, recognizes the strengths that others have that I don't have, and the knowledge and the unique perspectives that they bring to the table augment what I don't bring. It's when I think that I've got it all and don't have it I seriously, obviously don't have it all, but I pretend that this lack of trust is established. So I just wholeheartedly am committed to this concept of we, because I've seen
the results you can achieve as an individual star while leading big organizations. But I've also seen the disconnected path that that might take one down. It's where it took me. So that's why I've invested everything in Wee since then.
Guy Bloom (27:38.211)
So let's give people a sense of we. There are 10 we's in the framework. So what we don't want to do is launch into a workshop, but it would be wonderful just for you to, yeah, maybe just roll them off. I mean, I'm sure you know them. If not, I've written them down over here, but I'm sure you know them, which is maybe just to give a sense of, this is what we're referencing when we're talking about these 10 we's. And that might be just a great starting point.
Guy Bloom (28:11.743)
your perspective.
Kyle (28:12.955)
be my honour and I can't jump in without the two caveats I always give. And the first is these principles are incredibly simple, wildly simple. There's nothing anyone's gonna hear and say, this is not for me, can't subscribe to this. And I use the word subscribe intentionally because a principle, and that's what these are, 10 principles, a principle by definition is a foundational belief. is our truth or our system of beliefs for a system of behaviour.
Because most organizations will bring someone in, teach them how to do their job, but they don't teach them how to be a good teammate. They don't set behavioural expectations or what I like to say is guardrails. That's caveat one. The second caveat is as I walk through these, let me actually make one quick point. They're simple, but they're not easy.
But what they provide is almost, I love your umbrella position. It's kind of an umbrella or a wrapper that the team leans into to say, this is how I am expected to behave. These are the things that I'm expected to do. It's how we interact with one another, how we are members of this team. That's the first. The second is, and it's a favour to ask. It's a caveat, but it's also a favour. As I walk through them, I would encourage anyone listening to this to think about how these principles might have
a demonstrable impact on your personal life, your relationships, your children, your loved ones. Because, Guy, that has been the most unexpected yet most rewarding component of this book is when I hear from readers how it's changed how they're raising their children. I hear about how they view their relationship with their spouse differently and they hold themselves accountable and expect their spouse or their significant other to also hold themselves accountable and hold each other accountable. That's the second.
And I'll fly through them. So the first and most foundational of them all is we number one, we do the right thing always. And I never leave out that one word, second sentence of always because it's leadership is a slippery slope. When no one's looking, you might be tempted to cut corners, which makes it really difficult in times of adversity. When the team has noticed in the past that you've been less than focused on doing the right thing, they're going to follow that suit. So it's important to do it at all times, always. And if you want to
Kyle (30:27.015)
If you want to convince people that you're committed to doing the right thing, the number one way to do that in my mind is we number two, we lead by example. I hear people talk about, I'm focused on leading by example. The truth is you already are leading by example. You should ask yourself, am I leading by an example that I would be proud to see replicated? What is your filter? For me, in many ways, it's my mother. So would she be proud of the person I was in that one-on-one? Would she be proud of how I handled negative information and how I
worked with the team to get over this challenge. So leading by example, and you mentioned something that I'm actually kind of passionate about, it's not just the life and death scenarios. It's not these strategic, it's not always these strategic decisions that need to be made or how you carry yourself, the most well-spoken, the most articulate. It's none of those things. Well, it's rarely those things. My favorite example is as I'm walking through the hall and a member of my team is walking towards me or any colleague for that matter, and I've got my phone out and I'm buried in that phone and I don't even say hello.
I've now sent the message, the example is you don't have to say hello to the next person. You don't have to acknowledge someone else in the room as they walk towards you. They're going to play that over and over again. So that's leading by example. It's just so important as a team member and as the leader of a team. If I want to demonstrate my commitment to this one, I roll right into we number three. It's we say what we're going to do and then we do it. We often, I'm certain you've felt victim, you have fallen victim to this as well. It's you're waiting on something or you've...
you've assigned something to someone and you need that thing, whatever that is, to go somewhere else. And you've got to, you know, it's it's a kind of a domino of a, of a bigger set of dominoes.
We expect our teams to hold their commitments to those we serve externally, but we don't hold ourselves just as accountable behind the scenes. And that's what this one's about. You make a commitment to someone, I don't care if it's a team member or a client, it's the same. We're gonna keep that word. If we're gonna be focused on making our commitments known and then delivering on them, we number four is where we run with, and that's we take action. Every organization, big, small, you name it, around the world, there are things...
Kyle (32:31.363)
Inside the organization or inside a team more specifically that we know to be broken. We know that this requires urgency or requires attention, but nobody's asked me to do it and Usually there's not a lot of incentive to raise my hand and say hey Kyle There's something that I really thinks gnarly in this corner that we should address Most folks don't do that because there's very rarely is there an incentive to do so and if it doesn't go well There's gonna be some type of backlash or retribution Which is why when we take action we got to be we have we have to be in a place where
Everyone on the team recognizes we number five and that's we own our mistakes. So if you want people to take action on gnarly problems, they're going to stumble, they're going to fall. It's important that everyone is around them to pick them up. The leader has an additional obligation. We don't just pick people up when they're down or they've stumbled. It is our obligation, it's something that sounds like Mark took very seriously, to lift others to new heights. And that can involve helping them leave your team. That can involve helping them leave your industry. It provides more fullfillment for them.
enables them to live a lifestyle, deliver for their family that maybe they couldn't do while on your team. That's an obligation. It's a human obligation, not a corporate obligation. So we're going to pick each other up. When we turn the corner from six to seven, it becomes a little less, well, yeah, no kidding, we're going to do that. It becomes a little more difficult. We number seven is we measure ourselves by outcomes, not activity. We're over-meetinged. We spend too much time doing things that are not value add.
I see it with some of my, I have a small group of executives that I coach, a very, very small group, that's some five at the moment, and I keep it that small on purpose. So often they'll try to share with me how busy they are and how it's hard to do things that would send the message that we're invested in this type of stuff. And I said, well, let's see your calendar. invariably they'll rotate the laptop and they'll show me all these meetings. I was double booked five times yesterday at 13 meetings by 5 p.m.
Okay, so let's draw a straight line from any of those and every one of those meetings to the objectives that you've been assigned. And if you can't draw that straight line, that meeting and that time spent should be scrutinized. I want us to focus on the outcomes, the things that our customers pay for, the things that they value, not all the gymnastics and bureaucracy behind the scene. We've got to be really careful about how we spend our time. Our customers feel it. They feel when we're struggling. They feel when we're running in circles. They know that. Likewise,
Kyle (34:51.291)
When we're efficient and we deliver a wow product or experience, they feel that as well. And that is usually born out of a really high functioning team behind the scenes. If we're focused on activity as secondary versus the outcomes, we number eight is my favourite, also the most difficult for many, leaders to grasp. And that is we challenge each other. We number eight is we challenge each other diplomatically. Challenges must be grounded in data or experience. We don't just walk up and
We blurt our opinions out. We all have those and not usually very helpful. We've got to bring data or experience and those challenges, they're not just for the boss. Challenges should come peer to peer. They should come members of the team to the boss, the leader, and the leader should feel obliged to do the exact same thing with his leader, although not always encouraged. We number eight without we number nine is a recipe for chaos. We number nine is we embrace challenge. Whether it comes from an external force, maybe it's a new entrant into the market.
Maybe it's a pricing center, whatever the case is, our team knows when we're faced with something ugly or we're faced with a big mountain in front of us, we're going to lock arms. We're going to look it right in the eye and we're not going to sugarcoat it. We're going to be upfront and say, hey man, we embrace challenge. Let's go. This is what we do. Not everybody is inspired in that way. And that's when a decision should be made. Is this the right team makeup or do we have what it takes to be really excellent? Not perfect, but excellent.
The last we, and I was purposeful to leave it as number 10, is we obsess over details. More often than not, most industries, most products or services that we buy, the difference between an okay experience to a good experience, a good experience to a great experience, great to a wow, like I cannot live without this product or service experience, is the details. I found there are two schools of thought. The first is, nah, it's just the details. Let's keep going. And that's okay in some environments and some scenarios.
As a practice, it is not, that's the exception. The other school of thought is where I subscribe, and that is details are not just the details, they make us who we are, they make us a differentiator, it is the differentiating factor between what we do and our competition. And if we focus on those details, the small ones that others probably wouldn't focus on, or our competition at least is not focused on, we have a leg up. So these principles have become kind of a coat of armor, and at this point I've worked with.
Kyle (37:14.759)
dozens, well at this point probably a hundred different organizations on implementing these principles and the results almost always improve, almost always. When they don't it's because there's a lack of commitment from the leaders. But what's more important than the results and probably more profound at least for me and certainly more fulfilling is watching folks transform from boss, task master, manager to genuine authentic leaders. That is why I do what I do.
Guy Bloom (37:45.807)
I want to say boom after you said that, Carl. I love it. Drops mic, walks off to the left and goes, thanks very much. Let me know how it works out. I love that. I like it for a number of reasons. You said at the start, simple. I teach martial arts and one of the things I often say to people is the complexity is in the simplicity, right? Which is, know, yeah, there are more complex things we could do, but the reason...
Kyle (37:51.246)
That's it, we're done.
Kyle (37:56.177)
Thank you.
Kyle (38:09.689)
said.
Guy Bloom (38:14.158)
all the people that you think are awesome are doing the basics really well. Right? And that, this to me is, there's nothing basic about it. It's foundational competence and strength that actually says there's the what we're doing, which is the j-job, but this is the who we're going to be while we're doing it. And that really, if I've understood, and which I believe I have, that really resonates, I think.
Kyle (38:18.631)
Yes,
Kyle (38:34.727)
Well said.
Kyle (38:38.983)
Nailed it.
You've nailed it, but it adds an additional component that I never anticipated, and that is they become part of the daily vernacular of the teams. So Guy, let's pretend you're on the team that I lead and I've noticed that your results are struggling for whatever reason. And if I'm going to live this mentality and this paradigm, including we pick each other up, the conversations go very differently now. It's like, hey, Guy, we challenge each other, right, man? And if you've subscribed,
You're not going to be off put because you know data or experience is coming. You know, this is not going to be some type of opinion driven conversation. And you've also said that I embrace challenge because you're on this team. So those conversations turn from awkward to much more productive. And you start to hear members of your team. If you, in my case, tens of thousands, I started to hear it in meetings that sometimes I would just dial in to see if, and I wouldn't announce myself. I just wanted to see if people were really living this or if I was being snowed.
And you hear people say, listen, we do the right thing. insert next step. They start to become almost lather, rinse, repeat, and we end each other's sentences once we get really proficient at it.
Guy Bloom (39:49.583)
It's a point of reference and it's a contract, isn't it? It's, you know, right. So if we've not bought, bought in is one way putting it, but if we've not subscribed, I think that's a good word. I liked what you said there. If we've not subscribed, if we've not, like, you know, if I've not subscribed to Netflix, I look at it and go, why are we watching this? Right. So you've got to subscribe, you know, and if you, and if you, and if you are, then we're sharing the same point of reference. We've now got a shorthand.
Kyle (39:52.763)
Well said, perfectly said, yes. Yes.
Kyle (40:10.727)
love that. I love that. Yeah.
Guy Bloom (40:19.394)
we say, listen, know, we lead by example, right? So I'm going to go first. It's, now know, I've got your point of reference, I'm bought into, I'm subscribed to this methodology and this vocabulary. So yeah, I could imagine that when you do deliver something like this, it has to be, I don't think the word simply is the right thing, it has to be bite-sized, it has to be manageable in a sentence.
Because if it, there's a lot of articulation that could go behind it. Every one of these could probably have their own book leading by example or, you know, or whatever. But actually if it's too complex, it's not transferable and it's not relatable. And it's not, it's not, we're not able to verbalize it in the daily parlance and the daily conversations because otherwise it's too much to handle. It's unwieldy actually. So it has to be like this.
Kyle (40:54.821)
Yeah, sure.
Kyle (41:15.761)
That's true. That's so true. by the way, I was purposeful when I first created the principles to not make them this top down initiative. I said, these are the principles, hold me accountable to them. And I was challenged and I, it was hard. It was really hard to lose that command and control because my business card said so type mentality. And I allowed it to become kind of a grassroots thing. And I would show up at a new location and there'd be signage that I had no idea was being created.
Guy Bloom (41:17.539)
Yeah.
Kyle (41:43.739)
I started to see things like coffee mugs and I still wear a Ten Wheeze bracelet. It gets pretty crusty, so I change it every now and then. But it's a constant reminder. It's a constant reminder and it sends the message, I am committed to this. So when the team sees that they're not just words on a wall, they're not just corporate values or a stagio mission statement to which no one can relate, and certainly doesn't compel them to work any harder, these are more actionable.
and there are things that we lean into and you watch this start to become who we are. It's a beautiful transformation to watch and be a part of.
Guy Bloom (42:20.99)
I really hear that. So here's a deeply kind of heartfelt question because I recognize that when you are bringing this kind of thinking into an individual or a team or an organization there's always a distribution curve. There's those that just literally bite your hand off and go this is awesome.
you know, I'm younger maybe and this is brilliant or maybe I'm a bit more mature but this is what we need, you know, and then you've got the the wait and seize and then you've got the it doesn't matter if Mahatma Gandhi and Mother Teresa delivered this in, I'm still think it's rubbish. Mainly because they've maybe because they've been hurt, this is their fourth rodeo and they've been let down two or three times. So actually they have committed in the past and got damaged and they have committed again.
got damaged now you're saying commit and they're like yeah just before I say yes to that. So again it's very rare that somebody's just a fundamental saboteur and if they are it usually comes from disappointment in the past. So I'm interested in how just you know you talk about bringing something like this into a space where to expect everybody to go hurrah on the first
installment. That would be naive. So just how do you kind of walk people into that way of thinking?
Kyle (43:51.931)
Yeah, you you remind me of a question I get a lot and it's connected to yours. How long, Kyle? How long is this going to take until we are a culture of excellence? Which is a term I use a lot. They don't like the answer because it's, don't know. I just don't know. Because I can't assess or evaluate your level of commitment to living this. I would be completely content if leaders of an organization brought me in.
Guy Bloom (43:56.622)
You
Kyle (44:20.071)
They learn the principles and they never talk to their teams about it. They show it. They don't talk about it. They show it. Perhaps they tip a cap every now and then to it. You're so right on that distribution curve. And I experienced that firsthand the very first day I introduced the principles. And I see it every time I present them going forward, every single time. And you can see it in the body language. And it is almost always the perception, or rather the perspective that they're bringing. That perspective is almost always.
inclusive of what you mentioned. It's like they've been burned. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I have to know going into any environment, whether it's the teams that I lead now or whether it's a group that I've given a talk to or working with a group of leaders inside of a company, I have to be realistic with them that this will live and die or die based on their level of commitment.
And if you try to make it a top-down thing where everybody's going to just get on board, it's like every other initiative. It's going to have a shelf life. And you'll be worse off for having even tried it. So I approach it very realistically. I cannot tell you how quickly this is going to, how long it will take for this to who, know, embedded into your cultural DNA. And it may never, because in complete transparency for your audience, I have been in organizations where it's just not going to work. It's not.
because the dysfunction and toxicity runs too deep inside of that organization and there is an absolute resistance to change. Maybe not conspicuous resistance, but it's there. And I think that's when we have to make these decisions, right? Should we look to take our talents elsewhere? Should we maybe have an awkward conversation with our leader to see, is this something that maybe we can embrace as a smaller unit and try to create some magnetism?
But ultimately, you might need to make the decision to go somewhere else. And that is a tough decision. And by the way, I cannot be more adamant about this point, Guy. If you at least are self-reflective enough to have the conversation, is there a better way? Am I void of an environment that, or am I not in an environment that's going to allow me to be my best, really cares about my development, allows me to contribute in a way that I feel as if I'm fulfilled?
Kyle (46:42.599)
If you make the decision to not follow that path, I got nothing but love for you. Why? Because we have commitments, man. We've got bills. We've got obligations. And if you choose to put your head down and kind of stay the course, I get it. I respect it. But just know, if there's an opportunity for you to take maybe one or two steps backward to take three or four forward, sorry for the cliche, but it's true because making that change is difficult and challenging and it's uncomfortable. But on the other side of that,
If you find the right place, you find the right team, you find the right set of leaders, the organization that is aligned with your values or your principles, in my case, the Whees, or give you an opportunity to evangelize those principles even better, that leap is worth the landing.
Guy Bloom (47:25.036)
Yes, and it's a strange world where at one end this is a commercial. Most businesses are organizations have a commercial imperative to achieve a certain number and a certain outcome. And everybody talks about culture. Culture is the vehicle that would deliver the commercial output. So do you have a sense that
Where does this sit for you as a cultural conversation, a commercial conversation, depending on who you're talking to and where their preference is? Or actually, do you see that? No, this is a DNA strand. This is a vehicle for. How do those conversations tend to go?
Kyle (48:16.903)
I recognize my response might come across a little woo woo. I get it. And if I'm being honest, the Kyle in his 20s would have heard this and checked out. It's not commercial. It's not cultural. It's human. It's human. We all want to feel valued. As a matter of fact, I boil it down to something I just call the ABCs. In our professional lives, which by the way, we'll spend probably around 100,000 hours dedicated
to this thing called work.
Kyle (48:50.223)
If we make the decision, it's a choice, it has to be a choice, to lead in a way that we recognize the person to our left and right, they're just like us. My title does not make me the know-all be-all end-all. When I make that decision to become less of a manager and more of a leader of people, it becomes part of who you are as a person.
not just as not just someone between the hours of eight and five or whatever it is that your work schedule is. And then they transcend into your personal being, which is kind of where I went a moment ago with my second caveat. My point here is I truly believe if we approach it from a commercial perspective, the response is going to be filtered and it's going to be more like, okay, he's only saying this or doing this because he's trying to get more out of us and get better results. If we approach it from the cultural perspective,
It will feel like a top-down initiative that everyone must get on board or else. What's that expression? The morale will, what is it? The beatings will continue until morale improves, right? It's just, it's just an, it's not going to work. But if I approach it from a relatability and, and, and authenticity, perspective with the end goal being trust, I have much better position for success. You now trust me. You're going to follow somebody that you trust, not somebody that you think is out for their own benefits and accolades.
So we want to add value, that's the A. We want to be valued. So if I'm contributing to the team, it's not just for you and the desires and needs of the company, I want to be valued. I want to be recognized for what it is that I'm doing, the value that I'm bringing. I want to be valued. And then last, and it's the hardest one, especially depending on the role, is we all want to connect the value that we've brought to those that are consuming the value. It's really hard to put something together
work behind the scenes so hard on something, but I've done this most of my career because I've been a back office operations guy. It's hard to connect the awe and the wow or the disappointment and the frustration that the consumer experiences when they take the value that you've delivered or when they consume the value delivered. But if in some way we're able to connect the employee and the work that they do with the satisfaction on the other end or lack of, I think that's the triumvirate. We want to add value, be valued, and we want to connect that value.
Kyle (51:16.093)
on something bigger.
Guy Bloom (51:18.924)
Yeah, and that question I just asked you comes from recognising that positioning can damage an intervention before it even gets going. Exactly, yes, and we can then go forward and do good work, but if this is positioned incorrectly, people start to reject it before they even get into the room to have a conversation about it.
Kyle (51:25.926)
assets.
Dead on arrival, brother. Yep. Yep.
Kyle (51:41.275)
without even knowing what we're talking about in some cases, right? It's like, to the point you made earlier, it's like, I've been here, I've done that. I've seen guys like you come and go. So you're not bringing anything new to me. So not even open to it. But when we peel the layer back to understand the why behind that, because as you said, very few people, if any, come to work just to sabotage what we do. They just have been burned in some way and they've not been enabled or afforded the environment to allow them to actually be their best. They might've heard it in the first time they tried it.
Guy Bloom (51:44.034)
Yeah.
Kyle (52:11.119)
It didn't go well, so they have kind of bitten their tongue since then. But I believe that environment and the creation of that environment starts with every one of us, especially those in a position of quote unquote authority.
Guy Bloom (52:24.75)
I'm super alert to time, and because this isn't the Joe Rogan podcast where I'm so popular that we can talk for three hours and millions of people will listen. So I'm just alert to that. We can only hope any minute now I'll have a breakthrough. But with that in mind, out of the 10, it's not which one, because they're all relevant. But do you have a sense of this is the one that people raise the most?
Kyle (52:35.495)
We can only hope, right man?
Kyle (52:54.993)
can give you two because they're inextricably connected. We number eight, we challenge each other and we number nine, we embrace challenge. So I mentioned to you earlier, a member of the team who was in that obstinate group, as I like to call it, she just was not open to it. The same person I ultimately called for the name of the book. So there's a happy ending to this story. When I first introduced the principal, she was not a saboteur, but she was not as...
Guy Bloom (52:58.947)
Yeah.
Kyle (53:22.727)
plugged in as I would have hoped. And she wasn't shy about sharing that. Not directly, but indirectly through passive aggressive behavior, like not replying to emails, not giving anything close to what I'd asked for when I asked for some help on some things. But I realized if I'm going to be the guy that's on stage trying to convince my team that we're going to be a challenge rich environment, and by the way, you better embrace challenge. We have to embrace challenge or else.
We're just going to be mediocrity and average at best. I recognize the more that I was challenged by this and other people, this person and other people, the tendency to use the business card and just say, because I said so, had to go away or else I'm not living the principles that I'm evangelizing and it's all dead on arrival like you said. So the point here is, number eight and we number nine, it opens the door for innovation. It sends the message.
I don't have all the answers. I need you to challenge me with better paths to more optimal outcomes because I'm going to do the same for you. And by the way, it's not just you and I. Peers should challenge one another as well because this is a team. And when someone's not pulling their weight, the animosity will build, we'll get off track, and then we've got this environment. We're not a team at all. We just happen to work in the same place. So for me, those two are the most difficult to live every day, but also the most impactful.
Guy Bloom (54:47.308)
Yeah, that really resonates with me. So listen, if I lived in the same area as you, it would be off for the restaurant so I could talk to you for the rest of the evening. However, wouldn't it? So what's really weird now is when I knock on your door in the next five minutes and you go... When I said, any time guy, that was just social niceties. You said any time. I've got on a plane, mate. I've come over.
Kyle (54:59.067)
Wouldn't that be fun? Yeah.
Kyle (55:09.735)
You said it any time. You said it any time, man.
Guy Bloom (55:16.398)
So listen, I'm going to bring us to a close just because I have to. So I'm going to get you to stay on so we make sure everything loads up. I know that people have listened to this and have had as much fun listening to you and have had as much value listening to you. Now, begin with we. Where do people go to get interested in that and to get more interested in you?
Kyle (55:16.645)
That's cool.
Kyle (55:41.905)
Thank you for the opportunity to share that. The book is available essentially wherever books are sold. It's available in the Kindle format. I actually really like the audiobook, which I narrated at the risk of sounding a bit arrogant. just think when you hear an author read their own stuff, for me anyway, it resonates more. The audiobook is out there. Amazon seems to be the place that most folks can get it pretty quickly. They're actually running a special now. Then if the book is not for you, that's okay.
I'm on essentially every social media platform at Kyle McDowell Inc. My website is kylemcdowellinc.com. The book's not for you. I would just ask that you just spend a few minutes surfing through each of those platforms or at least one of those platforms to give yourself a chance to more formally and appropriately and informed way say this is or this is not for me because it's not for everyone. And I recognize that. the more I can spread the message on platforms like yours, I'm so optimistic that there will be.
there continue to be this pull that I'm seeing.
Guy Bloom (56:44.558)
Well, listen, I've been in this space for some time and I'm very careful who I sort of get onto the podcast, but I'm very good at going and not necessarily buying into stuff. But yeah, there's your energy, but there's your experience of where you've come from and there's the history that goes with this and its motivation and its purpose and it's...
digestible, it's palatable and it makes sense and it's very human which I really engage with. So on that note I'm going to say thank you so much, thank you from everyone who's listening, stay on as I've just said and once again you've been an absolute rock star.
Kyle (57:28.94)
It's my pleasure to be here. Thank you again.