Dr. Joel A Davis Brown, The Souls Of Queer Folk

In this episode of Leadership Bites, Guy Bloom interviews Dr. Joel A. Davis Brown, Esq, an organizational development expert, author of The Souls of Queer Folk: How Understanding LGBTQ+ Culture Can Transform Your Leadership Practice about the evolving landscape of leadership, particularly in the context of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). 

Joel shares his journey from corporate America to becoming a thought leader in leadership practices, emphasizing the importance of understanding the LGBTQ community's experiences in navigating a volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous (VUCA) world. 

The conversation delves into the challenges and misconceptions surrounding DEI, its politicization, and the need for nuanced discussions to foster better understanding and collaboration in diverse societies. In this conversation, Joel discusses the significance of open dialogue in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives, emphasizing the need for ongoing conversations rather than mere compliance. He highlights the importance of integrating DEI into organizational culture and leadership practices, addressing the discomfort that often arises in discussions about identity and pronouns. 

Joel advocates for compassion and a growth mindset as essential components in navigating these complex topics, ultimately aiming for a more inclusive and understanding environment.

Takeaways

• Leadership requires adaptability and community-based approaches.
• The LGBTQ community offers valuable lessons in navigating VUCA environments.
• DEI initiatives aim to create equitable opportunities for all.
• Misconceptions about DEI often stem from fear and misinformation.
• Diversity, equity, and inclusion benefit everyone, not just marginalized groups.
• Understanding different cultural perspectives is crucial for effective leadership.
• Political narratives can distort the true purpose of DEI initiatives.
• Nuanced conversations are essential to address complex societal issues.
• Leadership should focus on awakening the leadership spirit in everyone.
• The future of leadership lies in embracing diversity and collaboration. Open conversations are crucial for understanding and growth.
• DEI should evolve from compliance to a core business focus.
• Discomfort in discussions is a sign of growth, not danger.
• Understanding pronouns is essential for inclusivity.
• Compassion is key in navigating DEI challenges.
• Leadership can be learned from various life experiences.
• Organizations must adapt to diverse needs and expectations.
• Curiosity should be encouraged in DEI discussions.
• Empathy is necessary for both learners and those affected.
• DEI conversations impact people's livelihoods and well-being.

Sound Bites

• "I only get people on who challenge or excite."
• "This is a very disorienting, dispiriting period."
• "We live in a VUCA world."
• "Diversity doesn't exclude you."
• "DEI is about business effectiveness and efficiency."
• "No one is entitled to a position within the school."
• "Everything you do is politicized."
• "Conversation leads us to greater knowledge."
• "DEI should be an integrated focu

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Leadership and Personal Journey
• 2:53 Understanding Leadership in a VUCA World
• 5:58 The Importance of DEI in Leadership
• 12:05 Challenges and Misconceptions of DEI
• 17:59 Navigating the Political Landscape of DEI
• 29:51 Conclusion and Future Perspectives on DEI
• 31:31 The Importance of Open Conversations in DEI
• 34:55 Maturing DEI: From Compliance to Integration
• 39:39 Navigating Discomfort and Danger in DEI Discussions
• 42:14 The Complexity of Pronouns and Identity
• 52:57 Compassion and Growth in DEI Conversations

Transcript

Joel (he/him_) (00:00.526)
Indeed.

Guy Bloom (00:01.111)
I don't know what the hell I was just saying there. I want that taken out. So listen, Joel, absolutely fabulous to have you on this episode of Leadership Bytes. Welcome.

Joel (he/him_) (00:12.366)
Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here with you.

Guy Bloom (00:14.699)
Well, I do, I've got to the point now with 130 on episodes that I only get people on who actually I feel are going to be genuinely challenging or exciting or bring value to an audience who, you know, the first few episodes I was just happy to have anybody on, but now I'm very selective. So it's great to have you here. On that note, Joel, I clearly know who you are.

Joel (he/him_) (00:27.086)
Mmm.

Guy Bloom (00:40.983)
And it would be great just for you to do a little introduction just to give people a sense of just what it is that you focus on and think about.

Joel (he/him_) (00:50.479)
Sure, I own an organizational development firm that's based in the States and I've had that now for 20 years. I recently published a book called The Souls of Queer Folk, how understanding LGBTQ culture can transform your leadership practice and I'm also a keynote speaker and a professor. So I'm never left for things to do.

Guy Bloom (01:13.046)
You see, this is where I think when somebody says, I've got a book, I'm a keynote speaker and a professor, I have a sneaky suspicion that when I'm watching television, you're doing something productive. So it always makes me feel I need to get my act together, do more. But there we are. So listen.

Joel (he/him_) (01:24.482)
Hahaha!

Guy Bloom (01:34.792)
give me a sense of, let's just set the scene for people because you know we're people, we get to a certain point in our lives but what was the journey so it helps people contextualize who you are and why what we're about to talk about becomes relevant so just give us that sense of you know what guy I've been on this planet for this long and this is in essence this has been my journey.

Joel (he/him_) (01:57.999)
Sure. So I think like a lot of people at one point I was an employee. I just wanted to have kind of what you would say a standard career in I don't want to say in corporate America because we're obviously talking to an international audience but just wanted to work in law and help people and

I quickly discovered that that was difficult because you have organizations that consist of people and you have people who can be imperfect and may not always understand what leadership really should be about and how to inspire the people. So that's why I left corporate America because I realized I could be more effective outside of the system than within the system. And then I started to realize that this problem around leadership or this topic of leadership is there's a global pandemic.

And there's a global issue in terms of how we think about leadership and how we, where we look to for inspiration, sources, information and knowledge about leadership, but also how we practice leadership and who we hold up as being the leaders. And so that's kind of guided my journey, my life to really think more clearly about what does it mean to be a leader? How do we help people to become better leaders? And how do we awaken the leadership spirit within everyone around us?

Guy Bloom (03:21.11)
So I'm very alert to, I mean, I'm in the leadership space. So from that point of view, I hopefully very much understand what you're talking about. You have a particular focus around DEI. And I'd also like to talk about the book as well. No real, maybe we start with the book a little bit, actually. We'll start with the book. That's been in the world for two years.

Joel (he/him_) (03:25.454)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (03:47.534)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (03:48.119)
look at DI because I think there's some things going on in that space right now that are worth us talking about. So the souls of queer folk, why would somebody pick it up? Why would they read it? Why would it be something that somebody should potentially pay attention to?

Joel (he/him_) (04:02.358)
Because we live in a world, obviously, with this thing called COVID, with immigration, with a lot of the warfare that is taking place around the world, a lot of the conflicts. We seem to be at a very interesting time in human history where a lot of different forces are converging at the same time. And for a number of us, this is a very disorienting, dispiriting period. So social scientists have said, or called this phase or this time in human history as VUCA.

not to scare your listeners and they may think that's another strain of COVID, but VUCA stands for volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. That's the that we live in. And that is the world that we will be living in from now until this world ceases to exist. So when we think about living in a VUCA world, that should hopefully cause us to think about, what do we need? What does it take to survive and to thrive in a VUCA society? It requires a different form of leadership. It requires leadership

that is different than the tried and true leadership practices that have been hierarchical or individualistic or militaristic. It requires us to be more adaptive, reflective, community-based, collaborative, creative, imaginative. And one of the few groups that I think has consistently dealt with a reality that is VUCA-based has been the LGBTQ plus community. You have a community that has dealt with volatility for a very long time.

has dealt with lot of uncertainty, particularly now here in the United States and also in different parts of the world, has dealt with complexity and ambiguity. And I think if we were to study the LGBTQ community with greater curiosity and with greater honour and respect, there is something that each of us can learn in terms of how do you navigate a society, a world in existence where VUCA is there.

And also again, how can you not just survive but actually excel? So that's what led me to write the book. And honestly, writing the book was an accident. I didn't intend it to have that focus. I was initially just doing an ethnographic study because I wanted to reframe how we looked at the LGBTQ community because as you can imagine, particularly here in the States right now, the community is under blistering attack and a number of the successes and the advances that we've made have now and are now being actively repealed.

Joel (he/him_) (06:26.968)
So I wanted to initially help people to see the community as in a more three dimensional way and to get behind or beyond some of the stereotypes and some of the tropes and single narratives that exist. And then as I started to do my research and look at what it is that people are looking for in their leaders and what this community exhibits, I started to see the connective tissue and that's what led to this book.

Guy Bloom (06:54.913)
So, so much in there. And I always say when we have these topics, it's actually, can we do the podcast over an entire weekend? How are we going to be relatively succinct? So, and I recognize every door has a history behind it. So I'm going to be a little bit, sort of daring, but I'm just going to take us fast forward a little bit.

Joel (he/him_) (07:03.567)
Hahaha!

Guy Bloom (07:17.342)
I would think if you come into this podcast and you said you don't know what DEI is, I say just go and look it up first, do a bit of reading and then come back to the podcast. You've been clearly not paying attention for the last couple of years if you've got this far. So let's just presume people have a baseline working knowledge of DEI. I have a sense that, and this is where I'd like you to go, Guy.

Joel (he/him_) (07:27.619)
Right.

Guy Bloom (07:38.026)
No, yes, doesn't matter what your thoughts are, if they're contrary or in agreement with me. I have a sense that with most topics, there's a distribution curve. There's what I would class as, you know, it could be fitness. There are those at one end that are cult members and they're literally exercising seven days a week, three or four hours a day, through to people that basically don't get off the couch. And what I mean by that is any topic I can think of, there's a full distribution curve.

Joel (he/him_) (07:44.91)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (08:07.054)
of the person that's taking it too far to the person that should be paying attention to it. And they're not. And I guess that when it comes to most topics, let's just take fitness, you can't really argue with it. You should probably have a certain level of fitness. So when it comes to things like DEI, for example, I have a sense that, you know, again, it doesn't really matter exactly where you are on it. Most people intellectually would agree, yeah, it's something that we should be paying attention to.

Joel (he/him_) (08:12.813)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (08:35.511)
So if that's a given to a point, though there are those that might deny it, there are not deniers, but there are people that step away from it. I'm very clear in the US now that there's been almost a cancellation of DEI within government structure, or it looks like it has. How has that happened? What has taken it from being a really

Joel (he/him_) (08:55.959)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (09:03.252)
good, common sense topic that we should all be paying attention to and to varying degrees some people have more relationship with a thing than another, but we could probably all agree it's a good thing. So why has it, I wouldn't say derailed, but it has in some respects, and that doesn't devalue it, but why is it going left instead of right?

Joel (he/him_) (09:12.047)
huh. huh.

Joel (he/him_) (09:25.334)
Hmm. Yeah, that's a very great, a very good question. And I wish we have more time to talk about this. So I'm going to be as daring, equally daring in responding to your question.

Guy Bloom (09:40.309)
Okay.

Joel (he/him_) (09:42.115)
I think the first reason is because we have a regime in place in the United States right now that does not respect the history, the diversity, and the plurality that exists within our society and wants to make us essentially a very homogenous, almost kind of a white Christian national society. So anything that deviates from that is seen as a threat. You have a number of people who operate with the mindset that

If other people are succeeding, that means that I must be failing. So there's a zero sum mentality that exists in the higher, the upper reaches of the United States government at this particular time that thinks that if we have people who are doing well, or not someone who's even doing well, but getting access, given the opportunity, that somehow that takes away from the fabric of what this country is. Which I think we're gonna see is gonna have disastrous consequences for the United States.

in that regard. So speaking more candidly and bluntly, there have been people who have fashioned DEI as this is only something that supports black indigenous people of colour. This is only something that benefits women or people with disabilities or immigrants or people who are LGBTQ. But let's take a step back because I think this is a good time for us as a society and as global citizens to understand what exactly are the purpose and what are the aims of DEI.

First of all, I've yet to meet anyone and I have yet to, I don't, I've not talked to everybody on the planet, but in traveling as extensively as I have, I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't want to feel included. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't want to feel respected, honoured, and valued. So think that's the first thing. The second thing that we have to realize is, and this is where I think Americans particularly suffer with their ethnocentrism, and I can say that as an American,

that there are different realities. So for example, let's say I work for a company or an organization and I have peers in the UK, have peers in India, have peers and colleagues, let's say in Thailand. Recognizing that we all have a different way of working that actually does work is part of why it's important to make sure that we recognize the different realities, the different perspectives and the different cultural ways of being that people bring to the table. So if I talk to you, for example, about leadership, teamwork, work ethic,

Joel (he/him_) (12:05.262)
Creativity the way that those things may be Demonstrated in the UK may be different than how they're demonstrated in a particular slice of The US doesn't mean that they're wrong because I'm sure that you have success But then how do we create some alignment and make sure that everybody's working together? That is the essence of diversity and in the US There are 13 distinct regions that have a very

have different cultures, not to mention the 50 states, not to mention each city and town and village within each of those states. We're a very diverse country. So there has to be something, a mechanism to make sure that everybody's operating in a one-in-a-core, people are working together, people are working effectively. The equity piece, so we talked about diversity, we've talked about inclusion, the equity piece comes into play when we recognize that not everybody is operating from the same place.

And in trying to make sure that we leverage the skill sets and the brilliance and knowledge and expertise of everybody there, we have to realize not everybody's gotten the same access. And that phenomena impacts all of us. The fact, for example, that our military, know, so they have, you know, the US government now has gotten rid of a lot of queer or transgender linguists, which we know, for example, back during the Bush Jr.

or the George W. Bush, I should say, regime or administration, hurt us in terms of our military efforts, if you want to call them that, in the Middle East. Because transgender and linguists or transgender people were discriminated against in the armed services, we had a shortage of expertise in terms of translation. So it's not about giving people privilege. It is about giving people access to the quote unquote table.

where they otherwise have been faced bias, discrimination or repression, which has otherwise hurt the overall mission and purpose of a particular organization. That's why we have it. And so if people understood that, I think more people would be in support of it because it benefits everybody. So if you're a white male, diversity doesn't exclude you. You are part of the equation because a system, the world is diverse. It doesn't mean that we exclude

Joel (he/him_) (14:28.98)
men or people who identify as white or European or people who are able-bodied or people who are nativists, everybody's part of the pool. The only part that I think has challenged some people is recognizing that we can't treat everybody the same because everybody's had the same opportunities. And so, for example, you look at women, you think about STEM industries and STEM companies here in the United States, we know that the majority of people who are graduating from colleges and earning master's degrees in the United States

are women, but unfortunately women are underrepresented when it comes to tech in the United States. Well, there you have a problem because you have the people who are the most experienced that have the greatest expertise who are not making it through the pipeline. Why is that? Because we have traditionally had a culture and we've had cultures and histories where people have been excluded. So diversity, equity, inclusion is designed to do several things to create better alignment for multicultural workforces, which many of us work in to make sure that we

create inclusion and we leverage the skill sets of people who are most talented, which shouldn't be a surprise. They're not always going to fit a certain profile. Anybody can bring expertise and to make sure that we correct historical grievances so that we can fully recognize and meet the mission. And when the mission is not being met, then we have to look at that from a workforce standpoint and say, can we do to make sure that every person is able to bring their expertise and talent to bear on our everyday performance?

That's threatening to people if they want to hold on to power. And we have a person in the White House here in the United States who has gotten into his position by selling a swath of the American public this idea that the best days ahead of us would require us to only rely on and to uplift and to celebrate only a certain small fraction of the American populace and not that which would include everybody here.

in the United States.

Guy Bloom (16:32.481)
So when I hear that, I agree with almost everything that you've said, I think. Again, over a longer conversation, we could probably talk about nuances because there might be subtle things. But I think the one thing that I'm interested in is every idea to me, health and safety in the workplace, I think it's a great idea. I think you can take it too far. I think you can also not pay enough attention to it.

Joel (he/him_) (16:55.96)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (17:02.036)
So what I'm trying to get at is there's very few things in this space which I wouldn't go, yeah, makes sense. The probably, call it the issue, the debate, the problem or whatever the word is, is to what degree? Because for one person it's too much, for another person it's not enough. So I'm interested, I guess, in is it fair to say that

Joel (he/him_) (17:02.382)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (17:30.454)
For some, at some level, the DEI agenda, which is, I think, pretty well unarguable against, has been politicised or hijacked by a percentage who've pushed the agenda so far into such extreme places that it either hasn't given the majority of the population time to acclimatise and come along the way.

or it's created an opportunity for naysayers to point at extremes, which then may have poisoned the agenda, which in itself is a solid agenda.

Joel (he/him_) (18:15.078)
I think you would have to look at look at it on a case by case basis I mean so I'm curious as you think about that are there specific examples or is there a specific issue that you can think of that would be an example of what you're talking about because and here's why I say that

Joel (he/him_) (18:34.401)
A lot of this conversation and a lot of this talk around DEI and its quote unquote perverse effects really only started when again you have certain constituencies within the United States and also I can speak globally having worked over in the UK and what not, started to amass power. So any, there's,

I've worked with enough people to know that DEI, like with any DEI, I think if we reframe it, it's really about business effectiveness and business efficiency. It's not, so for example, I introduced myself at the beginning of this podcast as an OD consultant. And so when people say to me, well, you do DEI, I said, well, DEI is a way to ensure high organizational performance. It's not something that you do in and of itself. But I'm just curious, do you have an example that you can point to? Because I think any issue

with the right, how should I say it, with the right type of propaganda machine and with with negative intentions can say or argue with things of run amok. So, for example, we just have an issue. We just had a situation here in the United States where there was a plane crash in Washington, D.C. And we're still trying to figure out the FAA, the Federal Aviation Administration, still trying to figure out why that plane crash happened.

And Donald Trump made the argument that, it's because of DEI. And the only reason why he said that is because one of the pilots happened to be a woman. There's no basis for making that type of conclusion, and just simply because a person has a particular, again, profile. So I'm just curious, though, as you say that and as you think about that, is there an example that you can point to? Because I'd love to just focus on that particular example.

Guy Bloom (20:27.7)
Yeah, and by the way, I'm offering the role of me on the podcast is I'm not actually going to necessarily give you my position. I'm going to offer what I see people that are maybe pushing back might point at. So for example, I will hear people just and again, this isn't necessarily just in the workplace. It's the entire topic. I will hear people say trans males in bathrooms.

Joel (he/him_) (20:42.062)
Sure. Okay. All right.

Guy Bloom (20:56.767)
That's a no. I might hear people go, women firefighters. That's a no. Why? Well, they can't lift a six foot two, 20 stone man up. And there's a lady recently who said, as a female firefighter, if I have to lift you up as a male, then you've clearly got yourself into the wrong place. There's a list of little things like that, that I'm not even going to offer you my position on it. But what I note is,

Joel (he/him_) (20:57.358)
Hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (21:24.248)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (21:25.77)
that they highlight themselves forced higher or acceptance into universities, going for minorities that then exclude other larger groups from entry. Now, whether it's right or wrong is almost not my point. My point is that for some people it's highlighted, I guess, as being one of the reasons that turns them off the topic.

Joel (he/him_) (21:43.534)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (21:55.639)
Because the extreme of it, or whether or it is extreme, but the pointy end of it means that the general population who don't think about it that much, they see the highlights and it infects maybe their entire opinion on a topic that is 95 % spot on. But it's that bit on the edges that damages it for people.

Joel (he/him_) (22:19.776)
Right, so here's what I would say to any person raising these questions, okay, just for hypothetical sake or just for conversation sake. What you're talking about in some respects is confirmation bias. And what I would say to you is, and I'm willing to go into some of these topics, when a person is opposed to something because it's been misrepresented or because there's a fear that somehow this is going to negatively affect me, they will look for whatever small or...

insignificant or exaggerated example to say this is why I shouldn't work particularly in the case of let's say for example trans athletes so I don't know exactly what the policy is right now for example in the UK around trans athletes but just look for example at what took place in the US over the past six months the Trump campaign spent two hundred and fifteen million dollars on ads attacking trans athletes 215 million at the collegiate level

there are, I believe, less than five trans athletes right now competing in women's sports. And keep in mind, there are trans athletes competing in men's sports, but it's not seems to be an issue in men's sports. It seems to be an issue in women's sports. So then as part of the public, what I have to ask myself is why is this conversation being elevated? Because it's designed to scare people. Now I'm not here to suggest that any

around the inclusion of trans athletes doesn't need to be scrutinized and doesn't need to be reviewed and revisited. But the point of DEI or the point of I would say any type of policies to make sure that all of the affected constituents are there and have a seat at the table in formulating a new policy and that the policy is done for the best interest of all, not the few, and it's not done just during a political season. When we talk about education, for example, because that's something that I've heard

for as long as I've been around. So when I, for example, first went to school, you know, I had a number of people suggest to me, well, you're here because of diversity, equity, inclusion. By the time they said affirmative action, which are two different things. So they were saying, you're here because you're here to fulfill a quota. You're here because you probably didn't meet the requisite requires. And I heard that through every part of my educational journey. And I will say to your listeners, I have two doctorates. And so you think at some point those questions would desist, but they didn't.

Joel (he/him_) (24:39.596)
Here's what I would say to people on that particular issue.

Admission into a university is discretionary. So essentially when people are questioning whether people should be in a university, whether they should be in a college, they're basically saying they are entitled. No one is entitled to a position within the school. Decisions on the missions are based on discretionary basis and they're going to look at a number of different things. They're going to look at your academic record. They're going to look at your achievement. They're going to look at what you have done in the community. They're going to think about what type of impact you can be and what your vision is and how you plan to enhance the university community. If

The idea is that a person, example, who, let's say, and this is for anybody, if you come from a privileged background, and let's say you come from high school or the equivalent of the UK, you earn a 4.0, are you the type of person that I may want as a university admissions representative? Or am I looking at someone who, let's say, didn't have resources, didn't have as much money, but let's say has been able to come up or,

achieve a 3.5 grade point average with little resource, a little family support, who's more deserving? And so those are the philosophical questions that we have to ask about. And so for me, if I were in that position, what I'm looking at, not just is whether a person can do good work, whether they've had a high GPA, what type of resilience are you showing? What type of leadership are you showing? What type of creativity? So underlying those very questions around education, for example, is this idea

that certain people believe that they are entitled to a position in school and I adamantly disagree with that whole idea. I am not suggesting that people should get into school if they haven't shown any type of work ethic and they haven't shown any type of mettle or resilience. But again, when these questions are asked, I think we have to dig a little bit deeper and deconstruct where exactly are they coming from. And in that particular instance, what is always interesting to me is that people have essentially said,

Joel (he/him_) (26:36.483)
There's a certain type of person who is deserving of the spot. And if I don't get in, that someone has stolen my spot when no one is owed a particular spot when it comes to university admissions. All of these questions, I think, point to the fact that when we're having these types of discussions, none of these types of answers and conversations can fit into sound bites. They can't fit into commercials. And if the only way that we discuss these things is when they're on the news and when they're basically circulated in

newspapers or whatnot without actually talking to people about what is actually at stake and who's affected and what's actually taking place then becomes easy to fall back on well this is just happening because of DI and DI is running amok and we have people becoming too woke and I think the questions are much deeper and one of the things that I hope that we can do in our VUCA society is learn how to have more discernment learn how to have deeper conversation

and learn how to appreciate nuance and context. And maybe that can help us to avoid some of the polarization that's been taking place.

Guy Bloom (27:43.105)
So I agree with you that it's a topic that has a lot of history and a lot of different positions around it. And I think that the more you talk about it, the more people can listen and understand it. I do have a sense that it's a lot more politicized in the US than it is in the UK. I think there's politic around it in the UK. But it feels that the questions that I'm asking

you then bring in a political element to it as well because by the sounds of it and what I see it's being politicised by different parties so it feels very present within the conversation.

Joel (he/him_) (28:28.27)
Yes and no. mean, I think, and I would say to you, in conversations with my friends in the UK, I would argue they might have a different answer than what you just said in terms of how things are politicized. I think when we talk about things being politicized, I think if you come from a marginalized group, everything you do is politicized because everything that you do is about requesting, seeking, equalizing power.

And so therefore, because politics is about the distribution of power, which you do, which you say, how you act, which you seek to accumulate, become seen as a political question, when really it's more about just human survival. It's really about just how do we get along in society? And yes, political parties will use this to score points and to get votes and whatnot. But I think these are some of the everyday questions that many people are dealing with, not just here in the U.S. I teach in France, for example. So I just want your viewers to know.

As they're listening here, they don't think, this is just an American guy who's never traveled outside the United States or studied abroad or worked abroad. I've visited, I've been in a hundred countries. I work overseas. I studied overseas. Probably will be moving overseas just to be quite candid with you. And these issues do exist. We're having similar conversations in France. I've seen similar conversations in the UK. I've seen similar conversations in places like Singapore.

I've heard similar conversations in places as far away as Brazil, Australia, South Africa, what have you. So I think the danger in what's happening in the United States is that people look to the United States not so much as a leader, but to say, well, what's actually working and what can we emulate or what can we simulate in other parts of the world if these issues do come up? And so a lot of what's happening here is tied to, and there's connection to leaders such as Nigel Farage in the UK, Marine Le Pen.

Orban in Hungary. So is it necessarily a political issue? I think they can be, anything can be politicized, but I think these are deeper issues that are being raised when we think about how do we manage and how do we facilitate again these diverse societies because the societies that we all live in now are a lot more diverse in many respects than they were just even 25 years ago due to immigration shifts. And so again, going back to that VUCA acronym, that complexity,

Joel (he/him_) (30:50.143)
is what people are trying to solve for. And one of the ways that people are trying to solve for that diversity is through D and I. And there's no one sure shot solution. There's no one quick fix. And you have to make sure that all the parties are being treated fairly. At least I believe all parties should be treated fairly. I shouldn't say that's a common notion. And this is one of the reasons why these conversations I think are bubbling up and will become more commonplace no matter where you are around the

Guy Bloom (31:17.398)
So just one last question in this space before I sort of shift it into something else. Do you think there are any positions that people take in the world of DI for those people that actively support it that actually doesn't do the topic service?

Joel (he/him_) (31:31.47)
Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (31:35.203)
I think anytime you can't have a conversation, that's when it becomes a disservice. So for example, the questions you ask me, I don't mind because I think conversation is what leads us to greater knowledge. I think where there's been some concern is when people feel like they can't ask questions or people feel like if they ask the wrong questions, they're going to be, how should I say it? Shut down. They're going to be quote unquote cancelled. They can't talk about these things in a more

comprehensive or investigative ways. So DEI is not an opportunity for us just to say, this is how things should be. I think there has to be an ongoing conversation because when it comes to thinking who's being marginalized, I mean, that conversation I think is constantly being expanded. But again, how do we fashion solutions that everybody can succeed and everybody can have equal access and equal opportunity? We're not trying to, at least from my work, we're not focused on

equalization of a result. think the other thing where I would like to see DEI mature is actually focus on tangible leadership skills. So let me give you an example of what that looks like. When I work with organizations and people say, okay, I did, or I read a history lesson. So I understand why this is important, for example. I will say to them, okay, it's wonderful that you've understood this larger lesson.

or you've read some history book, how does this actually impact the people within your organization? What can you show them that will help them to understand how they move from a place of understanding the quote unquote business case to actually understanding what are discrete business practices that will help them to improve their leadership skills to be more effective, to make sure that they're supporting their customers and their stakeholders and making sure that their teammates feel nurtured as well. That's where I think there's been a gap.

That's where I think there's been some lack of focus and what I would say maturity. I would also say in terms of DEI, I see a number of organizations doing this work because they simply want to avoid being sued or they want to avoid being on someone's, I can't say the word, but someone's list, if you will. That shows a lack of organizational maturity.

Joel (he/him_) (33:56.111)
the outfits, the organizations and the companies that do this work well, they understand the DEI is an integrated focus of what they do. And so it is there as part of helping the business to do well. It's not just something that's programmatic that you do during certain times of the year. It's not something that you just do from a compliance standpoint. And it's not just aspirational. So it's not just this thing that you do because it feels good, it sounds good. Hey, they're doing it in the States, they're doing it in the UK, they're doing it in places abroad. So let's try something different.

it has to be part of, again, the business case and it has to be integrated into your business functions so people understand this isn't something we're just doing because it's cliche or it's trendy. We're doing this because this actually helps us to be more effective at what we ultimately aim to do. Those are the things that I think DEI can improve upon. And like with any industry, there are improvements that can be made. We just don't throw the baby out with the bathwater because there are some misunderstanding because there are some questions that are being raised here in 2025.

Guy Bloom (34:55.127)
So, did I hear you—or did I understand you correctly to say that one of the biggest things that might work as a disservice or one of the ways that it's done that makes it very effective is when the conversation is easy for both parties at its best—well, it might be difficult at various levels—but what I mean is there's no sense of threat for being curious. There's no sense of a punitive reaction.

because of what somebody might be called or labelled at. And I'm wondering if that's one of the things that actually doesn't help the topic because people are, I would say, very nervous of taking maybe even a different position or being generally curious as to where the volume is set on a particular initiative.

because of how they might be labelled and I'm wondering if that's something that, or maybe let me change that phrase, I would actually offer that the greatest service to the entire agenda would be making it incredibly easy to talk about.

Joel (he/him_) (36:06.734)
I think that is definitely one of the challenges. But here's the thing too, so both and, right? There's obviously going to be some forms of speech that I think flout what we believe to be decency or they violate the terms of professional conduct, so I want to be very clear about that. But what I would say to people is, yes, we want to make sure that people feel empowered, that people can be curious.

Because that's all you learn. I so for example, I sit here as a man. I would be loathe to say that I understand even as a consultant, even as a global citizen, even as someone who considers myself a womanist, a person who believes in equal rights, that I understand everything that there is to learn about women and their experience in business and what it's like to work in an unequal or patriarchal society. I think we had to be clear about that. So there's a certain, I would hope.

amount of curiosity and latitude that I'm allowed is I'm trying to learn and be a better ally and to be a better leader myself in supporting women who might be either on my team or working in an organization that I support or partner with. I think what people should also recognize is that there's a difference between discomfort and danger. And sometimes the people who criticize, let's just say, DEI or organizational development

perceive there to be danger when there's simply discomfort. And there's a difference. Discomfort is when you are basically thinking about something or being asked to move outside your comfort zone. So perhaps, for example, you've never had to confront the history of your particular country or the history of a particular industry or recognizing that, yes, your leadership team in part, maybe part of the reason why you've been elevated or you've been promoted to a particular position is because you fit, again, a certain profile.

but others are not given the same opportunity. And so now you're being asked to make sure that you kind of break the glass ceiling, do away with the boys club and you allow other people in. That could be a very disquieting notion for someone who's come, who's always operated with this belief that I've done everything the right way. I am an expert. I'm smart. That's the only reason why I've achieved my position in life or my position in the company. That's uncomfortable, but it doesn't mean that you're in danger.

Joel (he/him_) (38:31.799)
And so I also want people to understand that just because you are presented with some uncomfortable truths and an uncomfortable, let's say, obligation for say, or something that is something that's not customary to say, we need to do business differently. I need to facilitate my leadership differently. I need to practice my leadership differently. It doesn't mean that you're at risk. There are definitely are situations where I've seen, albeit few, where people have been afraid to ask questions because it's like the nail.

that's sticking up and there's a hammer there that's trying to pound it down. And I definitely think we do better when we allow conversation and we allow dialogue. And at some point with any business decision, you have to cut that dialogue off in order to move forward for the betterment of the organization. At the same time, I think there are a number of situations where people feel like they're in danger when really they're not in danger. They're just presented with some ideas and a philosophy and a way of being and doing that is unfamiliar to them.

and for them that feels dangerous, but it's really just helping them to adapt to a world that is bigger than the world that they may have been used to.

Guy Bloom (39:39.219)
I think two things are true. I think what you've said is true, which is that, some people will walk very eagerly and easily into that way of thinking because it just fits, it makes sense, it could be a revelation, and they go, bloomin' it. Every day's a school day. Now I can look at this in a different way. And there will be those that resist for whatever reasons that they have. But I'm also, I think the point of my question was more, I wonder,

if there is a, the greatest thing that DEI could do would be to create an environment where, yes, if somebody is being challenged with a new concept or a new idea, I think you're absolutely right. The fact that it gives them stretch or even anxiety around having to reframe their perspective, that's okay. That's the stuff of life. I think for a lot of people, I think the pushback is not on the topic.

I think the pushback is when they feel as if if they don't agree to the level that's being brought to them that they then are put into a position of harm or risk. And I think that's the bit. But I don't even know where the level is. If you said, well, what do you mean, Guy? Seven out of 10 challenge, eight out of 10 challenge, where is a level? And I'm wondering if, as with

And back to my original point, as with any topic, you know, you can, I think you can do too much exercise and it's damaging for you. So what I mean by that is where's the level? I think with DEI, I think you can take it so far that even if it might be intellectually correct to be incredibly, you know, super fit and super DEI, actually that's not a fit for everybody. And if you're holding the...

Joel (he/him_) (41:27.672)
Uh-huh.

Guy Bloom (41:33.397)
the upper echelons of the topic as the only place to be and if you're not there then you're actually at fault. I think that's a struggle for some people, i.e. listen, I may not be as fit as you but I do jog a couple of times a week versus, hey, what I mean is different people are going to have different settings and I think the disservice comes for any topic and very much so with DI when actually I'm seen as wanting or failing or even at fault.

if I'm not where you are. And I'm wondering, and I don't have an answer to that by the way, but I do offer it as an observation of why it sometimes creates anxiety.

Joel (he/him_) (42:09.47)
Yeah.

Joel (he/him_) (42:14.454)
Yeah, and I just want to offer some context from my earlier comments. This is a both and, right? So it's not an either or. Let me give one clear example, because I think what helps with these conversations is to bring them down to the granular level so that people can understand, or there are some case studies that we can.

used to illustrate them. let's talk for example about the idea of pronouns. So let's say for example you come from a let's say a background and you believe that there's only two genders. You can be a man or a woman but there's no in between. And I tell you that my pronoun is they them theirs. And you say to me,

Well, I have my belief system. I feel like I'm having something forced upon me. Where that becomes tricky is you can still hold your belief system, but there also has to be some agreement as to how you interact with me. If I say to you, for example, please refer to me as Joel and not Dr. Joel, or if I say to you, don't refer to me in this particular way, I think I have a right to do that. Right. And so where I've seen that particular argument,

And I'm not saying that that's what you have in mind or that's where other people might be coming from.

Guy Bloom (43:33.126)
Joel, just for a second. It is that because I wouldn't call you Dr Joel if you asked me to. I'd call you Joel. If I said to you I wanted to call me Mr Bloom, you go, well I'm happy to call you Guy but I'm not going to call you might go, I'm happy to call you. And by the way, rightly or wrongly, that's the bit where I think it gets sticky. So I think...

Joel (he/him_) (43:55.533)
Well, well, and so I guess to that point, now, if, for example, if you said to me, call me Mr. Bloom, I would think it was right. I would think it was odd. I would think it was different. Right. We probably would not have many conversations thereafter, but also from a from again, from a inclusive standpoint, I have to recognize that's how you'd like to be referred to. And so it's not for me to impose on you.

Guy Bloom (44:07.39)
I'd agree with you by the way, right?

Guy Bloom (44:12.416)
Thanks for watching!

Joel (he/him_) (44:25.262)
what I would like to refer to you because it's about your name, how you want to be referenced. At the same time, it is something that yes, might be unsettling. And I think that's when we have to make what I called, and this isn't just my phrase, there's what we call the law of mobility. If you find yourself in an organization or in a system where the values don't work, then you have the opportunity to also look for other forms of employment and to go someplace else or to be in an organization that more fits, more closely fits your value set. But then again,

Guy Bloom (44:49.45)
Yes.

Joel (he/him_) (44:55.043)
based on where society is going, that issue may come up again. And so I think sometimes people think being in organizations or being a part of the system that you have to...

that you have to necessarily agree with everything that goes on. don't necessarily agree that, for example, when I worked as a corporate employee, that people should send emails after four o'clock, but people did. I don't think that there should be meetings on Friday afternoons when people are getting ready for the weekend. I don't think that people should have meetings where they just go through and talk at nauseam without actually fielding questions from other people. My point being, there are ways that other people show up, and I think in terms of...

Understanding how to work in multicultural society we have to recognize or least I believe that we I believe I'm not gonna say we have to I strongly believe that we have to be able to learn how to adjust and to adapt to other people's needs and expectations and That is part of the trick and there are going to be some situations that yeah It's going to feel it build be easy and other situations. Someone's gonna say refer to me. Mr. Bloom I'm gonna say wow, this is different. I don't know if I like this, but then there's a conversation to be had

Guy Bloom (45:37.76)
Yeah. Yeah.

Joel (he/him_) (46:00.654)
I'm going to say to you, you tell me more about why you want me to be you want to be referred to as Mr. Bloom? Where does that come from? And there's a negotiation that I think can take place there. And there's learning from me in terms of what are some of my own biases? Why do I think that way? How could I also learn from you? Right.

Guy Bloom (46:15.424)
So I love this bit of the conversation because I think, for example, you and I would meet and it be a beautiful thing. The bit comes, I think, when if you said, I'd like to be called Dr. Joel, I go, that's great, because I'd like to be called Mr. Bloom. It'd be odd. It'd be odd to an onlooker, but the two of us would be happy, right? Or don't call me Dr. Joel, call me Joel. And I go, I'd rather call you doctor, because you're a doctor. Or who knows what the conversation is. But the point is, you've hit on the.

Joel (he/him_) (46:28.836)
Hahaha!

Joel (he/him_) (46:42.648)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (46:45.143)
I think the nail on the head. Between two relatively intelligent, relatively emotionally intelligent as well individuals, let's just put ourselves into the, we might not be Einstein but we're not daft, you and I would sit down and have a conversation that would create a kind of a contracted way of, you'd like to be called Guy, not Mr. Bloom. Yes, actually, if you prefer that or, oh, okay. And we'd have that conversation and 99 times out of 100, it would be fine.

Joel (he/him_) (47:11.822)
Cool.

Guy Bloom (47:15.174)
I wonder if that's the time that we're in, that we're in interesting times where actually there are some political pushes to legalize the way that you actually have to speak. So there might be a differential between if you said, call me…

Mr. Bunny, I would probably go, really? And we'd have a chat. And the chances are I'd call it to you. I'd call it to you if I looked you in the eye and I went, oh, this isn't just some whim. That's important to you. The problem is, if you say no legally, you've got to call me whatever I say. Ah, that's where people then I think get a little, there's a little dynamic that goes on for people. And I wonder if we're just in very interesting times where

actually society will find its balance. The pendulum may swing one way, then swing the other, and then it'll kind of find a place in the middle. It'll do that for five years, and then it'll do it again. And I look at some of the TV programs that I used to watch as a child, and I think, my goodness, some of the vocabulary in them, all the points of reference, we've come on. Because society does move, maybe not quick enough, but it does. And I think you and I is to, know, intelligent people would find our way.

But I wonder if it comes from forcing what actually is allowing society to find its way. Because in some respects, things do need to be moved along. But the balance of time and the balance of making certain things legal or illegal.

Joel (he/him_) (48:51.224)
True.

Guy Bloom (48:56.667)
this is where—and maybe that's just part of the process, and in five years from now it—but also, no, that's when it does it a disservice. Again, I don't have the answers, but that's where I do see the pinch points, and that's where I do see the anxieties, not between intelligent people having intelligent conversations, but people maybe that can't rationalise or don't think about it as much as we do, but they say, can't tell me what to say, and actually, that starts to become their filter.

Joel (he/him_) (49:12.919)
Right.

Joel (he/him_) (49:24.078)
Right. Well, what I would say to a person in that particular context is I first I'd be curious why someone let's go back to the pronouns What what is it that's preventing you from referring to me in this way? and I think the calculation that a number of leaders are making and Perhaps a number of people within society or DI practitioners are saying is The harm to the person into a class of people

of you not using their pronouns, where does that fall and how does that weigh in comparison to you simply being asked to refer to a person a certain way because they're coming from a different culture. Another example that is similar, there have been situations where I'm sure either one of us might be in a room with someone from a different society and it may be hard to pronounce their name.

And then you may say, well, can I just call you like, you know what happens here in the United States, for example, is you'll have people who will say, and actually I've seen this in France, I've seen this in the UK and other places as well in the global north, where someone will say, I have a.

A tribal name, let's say they come from Sub-Saharan Africa, they come from India. This is my regional name or my home name, my family name. But here is my quote unquote external world name. But there might be situations where a person says, well, no, I want you not to call me Steve, Todd, Julie, Amy, Sarah. I want you to refer to me in this way. Do I as a colleague, as a professor, as a student, as an employee,

have the right there for the sake because this is making me uncomfortable again. The therefore I should not oblige you simply because it's forcing me to step out of my comfort zone. And that's where I would say once you walk outside the door of your home, what I would love for people to realize and again, this is something I preach particularly here in the United States. The world is going to be different.

Joel (he/him_) (51:17.41)
there's a different set of rules. And I do think the ultimate goal is to help people in some way to show more grace and to receive more compassion as they wrestle with these realities. But I think there's a difference between giving people grace and compassion and giving people a pass when they're simply being reluctant or refuse to honour someone else's reality simply because for them,

They interpret it as someone's trying to tell me what to do. Once you work for another organization, you're going to have to abide by a number of things and have a number of situations where people tell you what to do because that's the nature of working for someone else and working with different people. So it's a both and. And again, I do believe in extending empathy and grace. Grace is one of my favourite words in the English language. But I also think that, you know, on the other end.

I think there needs to be more courage, more resilience, and more adaptability to say, if this is how the person wants to be referred to, this is how I can, at the very minimum, how I can show inclusion and respect to them on the interpersonal level and to make sure that we can move forward throughout our day. So it's a complex thing, right?

Guy Bloom (52:28.66)
Yeah, I think it is. And listen, we teach, we have DI within our portfolio of what we actually do with our organization. I think the reason I wanted you on the show was not just to talk about DI in general, because there's a thousand things you can just do about that. It is this stuff around the edges about potentially where it becomes difficult for certain people. But I do like the word compassion. I think there is...

Joel (he/him_) (52:43.715)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (52:57.27)
compassion for where people are, the age they are, the history they've had, the experiences that they've got, the... Well, whatever it is, think compassion goes a long way. And I think, if I think about any topic where there's two sides, I think the one thing that both sides can do... Sides is the wrong thing, but if there's people around a table, if there's ten people around a table, then you've probably got ten...

different people looking at the same topic from slightly different places and spaces. You know, if it was a fitness convention or a DEI convention and you take the 10 people, they'll all be at different levels and different places and spaces with the topic, even if they are fundamentally in agreement. So I think what I mean by that is not different sides, but the place that you're at. I think the one thing that I probably offer is the one thing that we should really all agree on.

is the quality of the conversation. Let's agree that regardless of if you're a level seven, I'm a level eight in believing it, or I'm yet even thinking, I'm not even thinking it's a good idea, or it doesn't matter where we are, that's a whole different thing, or I'm a 10 and I still think we should do more. Again, it doesn't matter on any topic, but particularly with topics that have an element of sensitivity attached to them, I think the one big thing that we can say is,

Let's all agree on the quality and how we protect the quality of the conversation and actually understand that that's the thing that will move us forward. Not just the position that we've got, but the quality of the conversation that we have. And that to me is the gateway and the vehicle for wherever anybody gets to on the topic moving forward.

Joel (he/him_) (54:49.741)
Ahem.

Guy Bloom (54:50.499)
I'm a... I'd just like to hear your thoughts on that really.

Joel (he/him_) (54:54.206)
Yeah, I would say yes and so, you know, judging or taking that from the field of of improv that some of my colleagues participate in. Yes, I think what we're really talking about to me is really about a growth mindset and a growth mindset realizes that in. Ever happened, there's always an opportunity to learn, and so this goes back to my earlier conversation around leadership. Sometimes we may think that leadership is something that's only.

honed in places like Cambridge or Oxford or at Harvard or some elite institution. But you can always learn and leadership knowledge is passed on to us when we are sitting by ourselves looking in the mirror, when we are in our family systems, when we work in our communities, when we sit in our organizations, and yes, when we act and participate in the world as global citizens. So think we have to understand that.

And there's an opportunity to use these occasions to think about how can I be better? What can I learn from this interaction? How can I grow from this? Instead of saying, well, there's nothing I can learn here. There's a fixed outcome. I can never take anything from this. And so I would encourage that. Here's what I would also say. The compassion and the grace need to be extended on both sides because what we talk about as being a conversation really is impacting someone's livelihood. So I want to go back to the example we talked about before of

Let's just talk about the pronouns. If I walk into an organization and let's say I'm non-binary or I'm trans and someone is consistently referring to me in ways that other me or do not recognize who I am, that creates a condition in a situation where I feel like I can't be my best, I don't feel safe, which ultimately then impacts my performance, which then impacts the level of livelihood, the standard of living that I have, which ultimately may either lead to

mental stress, mental health issues, me underperforming, me not earning as much and me not living the life that I want and feeling some anxiety and stress. So the reason I bring that up is because oftentimes in these conversations, I'm not saying it from your standpoint, the focus is on the person who's learning, who's trying, who may not have reached a certain level of competency. And I don't even like the term competency, but someone who has not reached a level of practice, who is not as experienced. And I agree with that.

Joel (he/him_) (57:14.446)
But I think we also have to have the same level of compassion for those who are on the receiving end to say, the reason why these conversations are taking place is because people have had to fight for their livelihood and sometimes fight to make sure that they can still be among the living. This isn't just an exercise, an academic exercise or an intellectual exercise or just a philosophical debate. The reason why a lot of these conversations, the reason why DEI has been such a focal point for a number of organizations and governments and countries is because we're talking about people's basic survival.

So it is a both and and I think the grace and compassion needs to be shown. And I also think at times recognizing that the reason why people have impatience is because their livelihood is being affected. And to the extent of the person cannot master a pronoun, to the extent of the person cannot be comfortable with a woman leading them to the extent of the person see someone who is let's say black or Indian or a person of colour and becomes uncomfortable.

that can also have very negative deleterious consequences for the other person as well. Not just in terms of their self image and not just in terms of interpersonal engagement, but in terms of how they actually survive within the systems that we call societies. So I just wanna make sure that that perspective is put out there.

Guy Bloom (58:29.214)
Okay well listen this is a topic that you can't try and cram into 55 minutes to also so I do recognize that we've kind of jumped in to a space of just saying at the beginning listen let's let let's not just try

Joel (he/him_) (58:35.487)
No, you cannot.

Guy Bloom (58:46.134)
I think for me, this is an agenda that if I'm hearing both of us talk correctly, you know, I very much try not to offer, you know, the what I think. But I do, if I'm going to offer what I think, I think it's a space that has sensitivity attached to it for whatever reason, for whoever you are. yeah, I think there is something about compassion, but I think that I hope that it...

Joel (he/him_) (59:05.208)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (59:15.316)
that capacity to say, wherever you are, wherever I am, whatever the setting that we're at, actually, if we can't protect the quality of the way in which we interact, then that creates the biggest problem of all, because then we can't keep talking, we can't learn from each other, we can't grow, we can't be challenged, we can't be held to account, because if it flicks away from high-quality conversation,

into something else. That's a bigger problem than the actual topic. The topic is what it is, but if we can't actually communicate about it, we can't learn. I think it's, yeah, it's a, I love this conversation, I think it is a high quality conversation that brings curiosity or challenge. And if we were together for an afternoon or for an evening and it just went on.

with ease rather than though it were being videoed and recorded. You know, it would meander and it would go into different places. But I think that would be part of its value. So listen, Joel, super alert to time. Your book, The Souls of Queer Folk, where do people access it? Is it just look it up on Amazon, Google it? Where's the best place?

Joel (he/him_) (01:00:14.478)
All right.

Joel (he/him_) (01:00:32.751)
Yeah, I'm smiling because Amazon is lost a little bit of favour here in the United States right now. But yes, you can find it on Amazon. You can find it on Barnes and Noble. You can also find it on my website. I know the question out there probably exists in some quiet mind. If I'm not LGBTQ, how could I learn from this book? The wisdom that is offered by the LGBTQ community is universal. And so it's for anyone. And I would also say to people,

Guy Bloom (01:00:39.318)
All right.

Joel (he/him_) (01:00:59.821)
The wisdom of the LGBTQ community has been forged by people from a variety of different backgrounds, perspectives, and cultures all around the world. So this isn't a single voice, but the wisdom is there for everyone to apply it. And I think people would be better off if they looked at our community and say, there's something here that we can take from everyone, particularly this community that has been dehumanized, that has been dismissed and degraded in many ways, and yet it still continues to do well despite the circumstance that we find ourselves in.

Please visit any of those places. Please share. The book is not meant to just be a, it is Numos. That's a Greek word. So it's spelled Papa November Echo Uniform MaryOscarsam.com. And I look forward to hearing from people. love building community and continue these conversations. I think that's important.

Guy Bloom (01:01:31.776)
What's your website, Joel?

Guy Bloom (01:01:51.04)
Fabulous, well I'll make sure all of that's in the notes that go with the show. Joel, you've been a joy, you know, I knew this would be a great conversation, I knew I was getting somebody on that was smart, switched on and knew what they were about and you've absolutely not disappointed, so this is one of my favourite conversations. So I'm just gonna say thank you from me and thank you from everybody that's listening, very, very much appreciated. But do stay on watch.

Joel (he/him_) (01:02:15.554)
Thank you. Thank you.