Carmin Romanelli is one of the my favourite people that I never get to hang out with. He is one of those characters that is a character and has character. They don't alway go to together, however they do with Carmin.
Carmin is the VP for Global Sports at Getty Images has a hugely succesful track record of working in the sports industry including NBA, Sports Illustrated and Getty Images. He is a vastly experienced professional skilled in Digital Strategy, Content, Licensing, Business Development, Integrated Marketing, Media, Advertising, and Business Management.
Why do I like him? Well, I like his peronal transparency and take on the world, he sees the truth in situations and is able to verbalise them in a manner that makes sense to those in the room.
Carmin is to use a familiar phrase: "A straight shooter".
We talk about leaderhip, culture and what leadership looks and feels like.
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carmen absolutely fabulous to have you on this episode of leadership bite welcome thank you guys it's a pleasure to be here and i was just trying to think about the last time that we uh we we saw each other but it was at a conference and it feels like um and i'm terrible at this but i was going to say about five years ago i don't know if that's right or um i'm also terrible at that but that's about the right place and rather than when it was i remember you were there you know doing management coaching and uh in your glory and what i remember most about it in addition to your your coaching and your teachings was we always had a good rapport an interaction where we would sit somewhere and you know sort of have our one-on-one conversations so uh i'm happy to see you and be here with you today yeah absolutely and that's why i reached out to you so uh so i would love you just to introduce yourself to an audience that um you know will know who you work for but not know what you do and you i'd then like to sort of get into you and what you're about so just first of all if you could introduce yourself and and what you do that'd be great yes uh i'm carmen rominelli i'm currently the global vp of sports for getting images uh which is a job some people tell me i was born to do um but i actually describe myself as a visual geek and i everything i've done in my life well not everything but a lot of things i've done in my life have been built around my passion for photography and visual arts so i've had a i've had a great career um you know before getting images i was at the nba for 11 years heading up all that photography there my responsibilities were a little broader i did everything from some photography but managing the photographers the archives the operations to the business to the sales um prior to that i was uh sort of cut my teeth in the time life organization the fable time life organization and i was a manager of the time life color lab for a number of years i'm a graduate of nyu with a degree in film and television so again the visual arts and you know basically through this passion for visual arts um it enabled me to get quite um a career in development along the way like at the nba you know you learn so much about marketing and legal you know as well as what i brought to the nba and i was able to teach them so i always believe in a situation where there's some sort of exchange you're offering something and you're getting something but that's in a nutshell how i see myself and who i am and you know come on i remember when i came to do some work with um with with you guys i hadn't really understood i mean like everybody you know if you see a good photograph or a good image you might go um you know that's may connect with you but i remember there was a feature element of the conference where there were the uh some of the probably the most senior photographers and they were just showcasing some of that imagery yeah and there was an intensity to it that just um i think i don't know if it shocked me but it really made me suddenly go oh because as with all every company i've ever worked with there's more to this than meets the eye and i don't just mean at a process level or a you know kind of administrative level there's always more to it than meets the eye but that's why would people care you know and and wow that was the image the picture and what it meant and i i don't think i still understand it as intimately as somebody such as yourself do but it's so powerful well i i think there's a lot to that and and before i answer it i just want to take a moment to comment on what you just mentioned the photographers uh again in my privileged career i've worked with the best photographers of the fabled life magazine sports illustrated in the heyday and everything that we have across getty images our news photographers especially you know our sports our entertainment photographers but news photography you know like you saw in life magazine that was telling the story of the world in pictures um they're a particularly special breed you know in that you know they are put into circumstances where they have a real story to tell right it's not just like you know someone on a red carpet you know where you're gonna get a picture of a beautiful gown or you know somebody running down the field with a ball right um you're generally safe to those circumstances but news photographers are there and every one of them i've ever met has this real dedication to wanting to what our motto is at getty our mission move the world and you can move the world with images because um you look at things and you know first of all there's no language barriers uh you know you're not speaking a different language you're speaking of visual language and there are photos out there you know famous photos um burning girl this the pulitzer prize winning photo in vietnam of nick everybody understands that photo right and that communicates the horror of war in a situation like that so if you look at different circumstances um and how you communicate it it's really in the end the photographer's readiness and his vision and being in the right place to be able to capture a specific moment that conveys what the story is and has the impact of moving the world moving people through those images i was really alert to that and with the sport photography i think there was one photograph of a tennis player at full extension he wasn't just at full extension i mean it was like he was superman yes he was completely horizontal i mean he obviously was about to land but just then it looked like he was flying from left to right across the image and you think and there was no i need to save myself here it captured his i'm all in it it does it captures i'm all in but it also captures the tremendous athleticism and conditioning of these athletes and i like in sport photography to performance art right when you're a sports photographer you're trained in a situation you're experienced you know different lenses you know you know angles and stuff like that and you have to know the sport to a certain extent to anticipate what's going to come next right but it's it's the photographer meeting the performance within the sport more than halfway and being prepared but what the photographer is experiencing especially the way um the sports photographers that i've dealt with throughout my life you know from the very best neil leifer and walter yost to some of the great guys we work with today at getty images right um it's basically it's basically this performance is playing out in front of you and you have to capture it right there's this term in photography called the decisive moment right and it's that moment that everything comes together to make a beautiful picture and capture something there's also there's also when you're learning about photography you learn about peace so when somebody is going to dunk a basketball they're in a position where they for that split second they stop moving up and they start moving down yeah so that's that's the peak of the action so they're actually stopped there for a second and back in the day you used to need to use that because the film and the cameras were slow and you would get a blurry image but now the peak is about the action because the cameras especially with digital lighting's improved if you're in arena it's really a great um eye that is necessary and a familiarity with the sport and the athlete as well you need to know the tendencies of the athlete and when you can do that you can capture these images that showcase the athlete putting it all on the line showcase the athletic ability and you know with that the same way that the athlete is prepared you know to be in that moment and play it the photographer has prepared to be able to capture it and understand what he needs to capture or she needs to capture the resistance there's no room for distraction in a situation like that and on a much smaller level and it is a much smaller level i teach martial arts and whenever i wanted somebody or want somebody to take photographs my issue isn't the fact that they can take a good photograph it's it's do they understand the angle do they know when i want them to almost press as in look if i knew how to take the photograph and i could you know make a twitter myself i'd step over there and do it but i don't know camera properly and but i need you to understand the moment and the amount of people that have taken really good photographs that are completely useless because they they're great but they they've missed the essence of what it is i'm trying to put in it is indicative of what you just said that really resonates with me that's exactly right that speaks to you have to know the sport you have to know the athletes right and then you know everything that came before that is all the training technical aesthetical you know angles light all of those things but ultimately that has to come together it's a crescendo right of knowing everything that you're prepared for and having the performance come out in front of you and boom if they mix together properly you get this crescendo crescendo which is a beautiful picture i like that actually though i love that idea of a crescendo i like these kind of certain words that indicate what it is that's really going on you know there may have been a a fight a match uh or whatever but actually this one photograph you know just like uh you know muhammad ali standing over you know the overlands you know it's we only need the one to go that that was that's what the whole thing was about so let's talk about that photo because it's by my my dear friend and and mentor neil leifer right okay and a couple of things that went into that photo first of all neil just released a book um about his 60-year career in photography and the book was on boxing right he also spent six decades in boxing okay um and neil is one of the best known boxing photographers always jokes how he never landed a punch meaning he never got the punch landing right which which you would think is that that pinnacle photo but no the ali over listen photo which is well over 50 years old now right um has been the photo ali's standing triumphantly the arm in that upswing motion which is signifying things sunny listen laid out flat on the canvas and in between the legs of sunny liston is the sports illustrated senior photographer herb shafman okay and neil got that photo you know this is where luck plays into it he was on the right side of the ring he was the junior photographer herb was on the other side of the ring he was on the other you know took the opposite side because that's how you cover a boxy match with two guys ringside and opportunity but it was fortuitous right the opportunity was there but if you're herb schaffman and if you look at the picture you'll do this the next time you see it herb's like looking down and like he's got this wonder it on his face because he's got ollie's butt to his camera and neil's got this great expression of probably one of the probably the greatest athlete ever right but also that photo resonates and is that is as important as it is because it's muhammad ali now if ali would have got knocked out in his next fight and never ascended to be the heavyweight champ never went through his stance on passivism and you know not wanting to go to vietnam and not being the sort of global humanitarian that he's known to be even maybe more than an athlete that photo wouldn't mean as much right because it's oh it's you know it was a photo of a boxer that you know got knocked out this next fight you never heard from him again so these elements come together um and a lot of it is just you know the universal lines when you do your preparation and you're prepared for that for that moment that x factor of where everything's going to intersect it's uh it isn't interesting that it's an iconic photo of an icon that hasn't become one yet and nor is the photo until certain things happen yes exactly a phenomenal photograph with this fortuitous moment and yet as you say interestingly enough if it had never boxed again for whatever reason it would have just been a cracking photo um but certain things have to happen yeah for it to manifest its true value and i kind of like that when we talk about leadership these metaphors often ring true for me but actually you know very often in the roles that we do we're we're in a moment that might become iconic because when people reflect on them and they go do you know what i i never forget that time that carmen came and spoke to me and now the fact that you know back then it may have just seemed like a passing conversation but in that person's life later on it might manifest as a as an iconic moment i guess as a crescendo to that year or or whatever it might be so this really resonates i think and you know what there's nothing i like better than when somebody comes up to me and tells me about a conversation that they had with me a long time ago and you know as you said it's a passing conversation and i viewed it as just the normal mentoring guidance i give out to people but all of a sudden you know they come to you years later and they say that conversation changed my life could i give you a particular i was at a wedding and uh it was for one of the guys that worked with me at the nba and when i was leading nba photos we used project workers that would come in they would put stickers on physical pieces of film and duplicates because that's how you did the distribution back then so the project workers that we would use they needed to know basketball and they needed to just you know be organized and they needed to be able to work for whatever we were paying you know as a there weren't staff they were project workers and there was this one young man he was in his senior year at college and he wanted a staff job in the worst way but he didn't want a staff job he wanted a job and why did he want a job because his parents were pressuring him you know oh you're getting out of school you got to try to get into the nba you got to try to do this do that as parents tend to do and tend to worry and i said to him look this is not what you want to do he was passionate about physical education about training and about teaching people right and sharing that with others and he came to me and i said look i'll give you an opportunity but this isn't where you really want to be knowing you this is what you want to do and i'm encouraging you to go out and pursue your passion right and see where that takes you if it doesn't take you anywhere come back to me we'll talk and when there's an opportunity i'll try to bring you on board he followed that guidance finished you know with his degree in phys ed 25 years later came up to me at a wedding and he brought his wife over right this is the guy and i was sitting there with my girlfriend like happy but you know i i didn't feel i did that much other than having a conversation the way you and i are having now yeah so i think things like that those moments um you know there's a whole thing on fierce conversation and fierce that i never liked the word fierce in things i think it's about authenticity and it goes back to what you and i were talking about um before we started recording it's i always been able to connect with people and sort of read people and i view that as a strength that's that's good individually and required for leadership and basically that ability to connect with him to understand that gee you're looking for a job but your passion is here and this looks sexy because it's the nba don't chase sexy chase your passion and i'm flattered when moments like that occur in my life and you know that you influence somebody through a simple conversation it is a fascinating kind of truth of leadership about how for some people of course it's that conversation changed my life for the better actually what it did was it set me on a negative path because of that power of the voice of somebody in a senior position and i think that that knowing that some of the things that we do are for the short term because the business needs it and then some of those things that we do are for the human being in front of us and balancing those two things i think is quite interesting i look at that a little bit different first of all even when i talked to sports partners today that were you know trying to cajole to come on board with us or customers i'm always in it for the long term you there's a lot of steps in a journey you know you're going to drive cross-country you know you might map out a plan you might decide to deviate from that plan because this road looks interesting right but you start with a plan and you have certain mile markers that you want to hit right so you know it's important to have that but it's important to be adaptable so that when things change you can make the adjustments that you make and that's why i say when i'm looking at things it's it's like a russian nesting dog right you have a big vision that happens at the company level but if you think about that even companies are swayed we were talking about you know social justice and you know uh basically being able to step outside the company into things like diversity and inclusion and uh eradicating racism excuse me and when you look at that there's always a vision that's nested down below right so when we do our goals and objectives you know it's done at the individual level the team level and they always coincide with the company's you know objectives for that particular period so the small actions are necessary to create the big actions that are necessary to fulfill whatever the vision is it's building a house you know it's brick by brick it's you know a certain amount of skills and expertise have to come together there's got to be coordination but the architect started with the vision of the house and how it was going to sit what it was going to look like and then all of those small steps so that's why i look at it as it's always the big picture and how you get there and it's always about in my mind for the long term whether it's building a relationship or hitting a target i like that idea of even short-term decisions it's actually a long-term action and that's a really nice way of me actually just reframing i may have said look hold both truths but actually it's no just have the one you know even if it's a short-term thing it's in the long term it's going to mean something so i think that's that's that's quite powerful i've maybe not thought about it exactly like that and and you know in your journey you know coming across so many different characters and personalities and being in the role that you do and you know the ones that you've had one of those stand out moments for you where you kind of go you know the reason i probably ended up as the human being you saw before you we're down to maybe that that book or that conversation or that human being you know give me give me a sense of those couple of key reflections of yeah that's probably why i'm here well i'll tell you you know what that's actually a very easy one for me to answer it really a lot of who i am comes from my father an old world italian man born in new york city but raised in italy came back to the u.s they treated him as an immigrant because this was back in the early 1900s and you know for better or worse and it was better than and now people would perceive it as worse a a son the first son especially in an italian family was vested in right and my father uh you know came here started working he was a laborer didn't make it through high school he took you know night classes when he came here but needed to earn money and he always worked hard but he was always an honest man and he gave me my sense of self-worth because of how he treated me and i think it's important um to make sure that when you're engaging with people you're helping them build their self-esteem and their confidence i have five children four boys and my youngest is my only daughter um you know and i don't want this to sound like it's different for women because we live in different times but you know when you're a father you worry differently about boys than you do about girls i'm sorry that's just a reality and you know the most important thing for me was to make sure in all my kids i instilled that same sense of self-worth confidence right that's important you know they they have to have a strong idea of themselves and that they they have value and meaning in life and i think that's where it starts and as a leader you know i think it's your job in engaging communicating developing your team not only to pick the right people but to be able to develop them in a manner where you're instilling confidence and expertise in them look everybody's going to make mistakes and the more decisions you make the more mistakes you're going to make but teaching people how to learn from that and i think that's one of the reasons um you know that you can you can engage with people that are then willing to be loyal to you and your cause and follow your vision because without that loyalty and without that ability for you to get others to see and believe in your vision you're not going to go very far right so i think that's one of the things that that sense of self-worth and confidence that was instilled in me through the actions of my father and there's something there about people want you know this idea of fellowship um you know i may have to report to you but whether or not i'll follow you is a is a different conversation which almost brings down this idea of servant leadership which is i'm not in service to you as your line manager but i want to be of service to you so that that that pronoun shift is is is quite important so that willingness to contribute to the needs of others to say it's not just about you performing for me at a transactional level i want to grow you i want to nurture you enable you to become more and when i experience that i think what i'm hearing from you there is when the individual experiences that then they do follow they want to they're not being loyal out of need they're being loyal out of um respect and they want it's a way of paying back it's a way of investing back into the person that's investing in them i guess i i certainly think that's part of it but i think it's a willingness right you instill a willingness for others to want to follow that but there's a great story about our space program you know john kennedy announces we're going to put a man in the moon by the end of the decade right competition is good russians launch sputnik us is behind kennedy gets out there makes this bold speech by the end of the decade we're going to land a man on the moon and return him safely to earth so you had the vision you had a charismatic leader right and then kennedy is touring i'm paraphrasing here because i don't remember it exactly kennedy's touring uh i think mission control in houston right and the janitor is sweeping up and cleaning up and he kennedy says to him ah what's your job here my job is to put a man on the moon right that's how you get people that buy in to a vision and really come together in a cohesive manner you see it a lot in sports um you know you have players that can come to teams and all of a sudden all of a sudden you know they disrupt the team players that have a me psychology they want the baller they're upset that they're not getting the ball but look at what happened with american football this year whether you love tom brady or dislike him tampa bay had a mediocre team they signed tom brady they had some good assets in place they brought in one of his receivers that came out of retirement and through the experience and leadership that they had their vision was to win the super bowl that's every nfl team's vision to win that super bowl but now they had somebody tom brady that had done it before that they believed in that at his age was usually the first one at the facility every day leading by example and now you get people that not only believe in the cause but they have the confidence that the cause can be achieved and they see somebody that's one at the time seven super balls i lose count and the the hunger that he has to now take this team to his eighth super bowl and everything comes together right so you have differences that can make a team and you know get it to collapse and and move in the right direction and then you have you know people that can be toxic that you bring on board that you know start undercutting what the vision is or what the confidence is so as a leader you have to know you know how to keep people focused on it and you have to know when to make changes if there's things that are you know undermining the ability to achieve a particular goal i i think that really tells me that i i see this a lot where there can be lots of reasons why somebody or an organization or a senior leader is asking somebody to do something but people are very good even if they don't understand the intricacies of somebody else's job they're very good i think at detecting or having a sense of whether or not you're asking me purely for your own need or this is about something that is yes it there is a need now but it's also part of something i.e winning the super bowl getting um a person on the moon it's my task is to do a b and c but it's true you're gen you're not asking you're not trying to get me excited so you can win and do well you're trying to get me excited because you genuinely believe in it and i think people are very good at knowing the task might be required either way but what's your reason for asking me and i think people are very good at knowing that you know i completely agree with everything you're saying but there's also the undertone here you're talking about culture you're talking about philosophy right and culture and philosophy are important you know you wanna people certainly wanna win and succeed but you wanna follow a leader uh the last four years aside in the us you want to follow a leader that has values that you know is is an altruistic leader i mean up to the competition has the confidence has the vision and is able to bring people together know towards that vision um look briefly look at the difference in the u.s right now in the treating of the pandemic from what we had when somebody was saying it was a hoax it's going to be gone in a few days this and that to what it became unfortunately and now how we have totally different leadership that are wearing a mask every place they go instead of this whatever it was not wearing a mask and turning it into a political statement i mean you look at things how you look at things and how you deal with them openly and transparently and tell people it might be hard but i'm going to tell you the truth but we're going to get through this that confidence and that optimism is very important i think that's something i see a lot where people are trying to and particularly in a social media world that we live in people are trying to often play to all parties and we've we have it where you know what's going to happen at christmas are we are we going to be locked down over christmas and so they opened up you know a lot more over christmas people would be upset if not but you know what i think if you know insert name of prime minister here and you know people can say what they like about anybody in any role you know go blimey i don't care which country you're in you wouldn't really want the job today but you know if i let you out too early people get ill if i keep you in the economy crashes oh my gosh you know so you know the the you know the judgment is you know whatever but i thought what was interesting is in our case in the uk if boris johnson had stood up regardless of whether or not boris johnson's supporters not the point and gone i'm gonna say no because i care about you all too much and if i say yes you're gonna have a moment of gratification like eating a piece of chocolate you know but then you know just like if you eat too much chocolate right you're going to put on weight if i let us do it we're going to have three months it's going to set us back three months maybe even four so um you know we'll find out what you think when it comes to voting time but right now i'm gonna take four months off your sentence of being locked down and i'm gonna say no now of course people would have had their reactions but i think actually what people want is that you can't play to all levels you have to stand for something you have to and in fact even if i disagree with you i may now trust your intent even more because you're not trying to play the field you're telling me what you think and that may actually make me even more willing to do something i don't want to do because i believe that you're being genuinely honest with me and that's a big factor i think well i think that honesty and transparency is a big factor and you know um your ability to believe in the destination where leaders trying to lead you there has to be a destination a goal but when you're being fed fairy tales about you know how it's just gonna poof go away there's only this many people that have it we've got it stopped versus this is real you can at least decide look i wouldn't want to be in any political leadership people for a role for a number of reasons you know this this situation the impact on the economy but also the media today no matter what you do there's a a whole you know other wing of the media out there screaming that it's not right and it's just too divisive but you you have to be willing to put it out there you have to you know make take a stance from a point of education and make it known you know where you stand on an issue and then look people are going to react to it so it's once again it's communicating clearly and honestly and letting people at that point see that and do as they may but you hope that they follow in a situation when you're trying to genuinely tell them what's better for them just like having a teenager my friend and you know i have that with my eight-year-old where you know sometimes i i've ended up saying you know i know you're not liking this but i need you to understand that it's it's just how i feel well and he gets it you know he goes i don't he actually said to me the other day he said do you know sometimes that is i don't like i don't like you sometimes but i always love you you know it's that you've got a as a leader you've got to deal with the not being liked because ultimately yes the bigger story right yes and you know they they come back it's like you're lucky you have an eight-year-old i survived five you know teenagers my daughter my youngest is about to turn 21 in june right so you know i survived five teenagers okay but you are about in a few years you'll become like all of us as parents the dumbest individual on the face of the air and you don't know anything and you know it's in mark twain mark twain said i never realized how smart my father was until i graduated college right and again i'm paraphrasing the face but the idea that as you mature you see you know what they meant where you don't want to accept it and also all of us have to you know touch the fire and get burned a little bit before we believe it's hot even though somebody's been telling us it's hot and we'll get burned so always always interesting but that speaks to another point it speaks to consistency right uh you have to know when to pivot or make adjustments but that goes back to the culture and the value and the philosophy there's got to be a baseline of consistency in leadership that everything's built off of and that speaks to what you were just saying i might not like you right now but i always love you because you give that consistency right and there's also the room in there to you know disagree to to challenge and to discover on your own you know what works best for you and then in a situation where there's a leader involved it's the leader's job to focus all of that on what each person can best do to achieve the vision and you know i was just i just make notes as i go on these things but you know your child may say like and love and you're in you know as a team member it might be you know agree but still trust you know i may agree but i still trust you i know that where you what we're doing here is because of your intent is good even if i am in disagreement with you so i think these things are quite um quite parallel and you know i'm being alert to time but the one thing i would like to ask you i've got one or two very quick questions one of them is coming you know what's there and i'm sure you have many but if you think back to the greatest bit of feedback i ever got that maybe made you realize that something you you did was great and you should do more of it or actually what you might have been doing wasn't serving you what's that what have you got there as something that made you go well i think i think it is um listening to there's a lot of times when people are trying to help you and they're trying to you know critique you in a manner that is meant to get you to understand things or improve your performance so it's difficult if you're not actively listening to what's being said and it's important how you say it right how the mentor is saying it but the reality is you don't become defensive right you listen and you try to understand that perspective and you try to learn from it but you know it's it's also carrot and stick right it's like you want to be encouraged to stretch your boundaries right to move into new opportunities as you develop and you want to be in a position where somebody's going to support you with guidance if you make a mistake right but not just be there with the big stick to slap you on the knuckles and said you did it wrong right so i think every time i've been able to learn things it really comes from somebody who understands how to deliver the message and how to make it a positive experience and also somebody it's much more credit uh credible when you have somebody that's been there right as opposed to somebody that is not and is just pontificating from the outside so again when you're watching a sporting event if you have the people that have played the game and they're talking from a perspective of the player and the game and how they're seeing things versus the announcer who's just calling the game knows the game but never experienced it at that level right there's a certain amount of credibility so it has to do to me with how the message is delivered and who is delivering the message yeah the um yeah that's a that's a real key there was a recent i can't remember he's just named now but there's a recent episode with joe rogan you know the great podcast king of kings when it comes to podcasting and um there was a boxing commentator who um gave commentary on one of the fights and probably best i can't find his name and look it up but um and you can just see that this person's trying to apply his knowledge from one space into another yep and as and has this guy's talking with no bad intentions with absolute you know desire to contribute you can just see this seasoned veteran looking to the side and you know the face of somebody that's not going to show that you're talking rubbish but because you know his face has gone blank and there's a cut his eyes are getting slightly wider and wider continues to talk and he's you know he's trying to hold himself in this incredibly professional way but yes it's you know what to the to the layman this may be working but because i also have insight yeah and you're not enough you're not big enough to go i don't really know you're the expert here i i don't know joe tell me explain what's happening to me no i've i've got to be seen to be knowledgeable but and in doing so destroys his own credibility in that context exactly that's a mistake that leaders make acknowledge you know the people around you who are bigger experts things mike tyson has a great saying everybody has a plan until they get punched in a face so your story there is really about unless you've been punched in the face you really you know haven't been inside that ring you really you might have seen it from outside but you really don't know what it's like you know so i think that's a that's a an excellent point and i again i think that speaks to the credibility and whoever's delivering the message so listen comment you know in this time that we've had to together we've i don't know exactly how long we've been chatting here but probably around sort of 45 minutes or so the one thing i've experienced from you because when i speak to people it's people i either know or i'm connected to in some way and i could literally just you know we could have a 12-hour podcast if i wasn't careful but my appetite might not be as great as the people that are listening but you know what i hear from you and i think what really resonated with me the very first time i met you is that you know you have a care you have a a genuine sense of understanding that of course you have something that you would like to get from an interaction but your willingness to be present for others and to have a really honest sort of conversation that doesn't need to pretend to be professional let's actually just make it adult and let's just make it grown up and i think that's i've seen that facilitating outputs that um you know you could go on a lot of courses to learn a lot of things but actually you know what if you come with the right intent you don't always have to have the right words and you don't always have to say it in the perfect way but if the person trusts the essence of what it is that you're trying to do with them then you're going to have a good conversation and i think i hear that a lot in you i appreciate that because i take that as a compliment i really think you know in any situation of leadership it's about authenticity and it's about the obligation to care you have to care about what it is you're doing and the people that you're doing it with and you know in between there's a lot of different space but if you genuinely and authentically care about what you're doing and the people you're doing with it's never about the leader it should not be about the leader and satiating him it should be following the leadership to achieve the vision and a good leader is focused on the vision not on any glory necessarily that they're going to get themselves and you know that then brings me to individual leaders and their fears and how they kind of manifest sometimes as they get put under pressure but that might be our second podcast as we move it i got i got plenty of stories about that the differences between leaders that are afraid to see you overshadow them and leaders that are confident enough that they give you the free reign and get the best out of you right and that's like you said that's a whole other podcast it's a whole nother day well listen my takeaway phrase from there which i really love actually is the obligation to care uh it's it's a real summary point of it's not just a role it's not it's not a task there's an obligation i sometimes i have to actually talk about the duty of care but i prefer the word obligation you know it's the obligation to care it's it's not a it's not a choice it comes with the role and almost don't take on the job if you're not prepared to take on the role that's right with the responsibility comes certain obligations the obligation to care is the top of the list i love it on that note sir i'm going to call us to a halt and i just want to say thank you from me personally i've absolutely loved this and i'm sure those that are listening in will get huge value from it as well so can't just just thank you so much as i uh bring this to an end you're most welcome pleasure seeing you pleasure having this discussion i look forward to maybe doing it again soon that definitely will be well you