James Baker is the Head of HR, Overseas Markets at Jaguar Land Rover. In this generalist business partnering role, James is responsible for influencing and driving the People strategy, inclusive of Organisation Design, Talent Management, Change Management, Resourcing, Engagement, Employee Relations, Strategic Workforce Planning and organisational effectiveness for the Overseas Markets of JLR.
Within this region there are 10 subsidiaries in Latin America, Middle East, South Africa and Sub Sahara, India, Russia, Asia Pacific, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and Australia with revenues exceeding several £ billion GBP. The overall region covers more than 70 countries and includes local manufacturing projects in India and Brazil. The role leads a team of local HRBP’s in each of the territories. The region has 3 Learning Academies and over 3000 retail staff in dealers.
Jaguar Land Rover is the UK’s largest automotive manufacturing business, built around two iconic British car brands: Land Rover, the world’s leading manufacturer of premium all-terrain vehicles and Jaguar, one of the world’s premier luxury sports saloon and sports car marques.
We talk about:
To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.
The link to everything CLICK HERE
UK: 07827 953814
Email: guybloom@livingbrave.com
Web: www.livingbrave.com
James Baker is the Head of HR, Overseas Markets at Jaguar Land Rover. In this generalist business partnering role, James is responsible for influencing and driving the People strategy, inclusive of Organisation Design, Talent Management, Change Management, Resourcing, Engagement, Employee Relations, Strategic Workforce Planning and organisational effectiveness for the Overseas Markets of JLR.
Within this region there are 10 subsidiaries in Latin America, Middle East, South Africa and Sub Sahara, India, Russia, Asia Pacific, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and Australia with revenues exceeding several £ billion GBP. The overall region covers more than 70 countries and includes local manufacturing projects in India and Brazil. The role leads a team of local HRBP’s in each of the territories. The region has 3 Learning Academies and over 3000 retail staff in dealers.
Jaguar Land Rover is the UK’s largest automotive manufacturing business, built around two iconic British car brands: Land Rover, the world’s leading manufacturer of premium all-terrain vehicles and Jaguar, one of the world’s premier luxury sports saloon and sports car marques.
We talk about:
To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.
The link to everything CLICK HERE
UK: 07827 953814
Email: guybloom@livingbrave.com
Web: www.livingbrave.com
Guy Bloom 00:00
Welcome to Leadership Bites with myself, your host, guy bloom. This is a leadership podcast where I have conversations with colleagues, I chat with guests, and sometimes they'll be just me talking. You can connect with me at livingbrave.com and when you enjoy the episode, subscribe and please tell everyone. James, just fantastic to have you on this episode of Leadership Bites welcome.
Jame Baker 00:25
Thank you very much, so thank you for inviting me.
Guy Bloom 00:28
Absolute pleasure. And we've been having a few conversations to get us here. And just looking at Diaries, I say this at the start of every episode, which is I know who you are, great, just to get an introduction from yourself.
Jame Baker 00:39
Yeah, sure. So current day job is head of HR for what we call the Abcs markets, Jaguar Landrover. So that's all sort of. Uh, it was mostly our emerging markets. So it's, uh, you know, South America, Asia PAC outside of China, Russia, India. All the bits, all the bits of world outside of UK, Europe, America and and China, essentially essentially so a a broad broad tapestry. Other things know about me. I've been doing that kind of job for for, for you know in career terms relatively short period of time and I spent you know 20 years in recruiting. My prior job was heading Up Talent acquisition for Jaguar Land Rover and. Prior to that I was at a leadership recruiting and and and my old team would probably say that sort of where my heart is and where my where my passion came from. So and and that kind of also drew me into the world of academia really because I was sort of looking at a lot of the problems and a lot of literature and traditional practices even in in in recruiting and kind of going like something a bit wrong here there's something missing and when I was asking the people that you would typically asked. For France as I wasn't getting very good ones, so that kind of led me to to explore more broadly and do some of my own learning independently.
Guy Bloom 02:09
Let's hop on that because it's something that we've spoken about and I think it's very interesting when somebody says I felt something was missing and then it leads them down a path of curiosity and investigation and into that academia space. Let's just start off with that's a great background when you're doing recruitment as opposed to just development, I think that's very interesting that you have a line of sight. On almost the raw materials, just as much as you do potentially have to develop. So what was missing?
Jame Baker 02:36
Well, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting. We probably start with that, right, because um. If you look at the traditional um. Methods um for, for, for selection, um. They they tend to come from a from a sort of causal mindset, right, which is really positivistic, which which in academia means that there's a relationship of cause and effect and things are set. And actually if you look at for instance the personality trait literature that the sort of hard liners will tell you that personality is absolutely fixed. And then if you come at it from a developmental. Single um yeah that's a whole different school in in in psychology and the the interact and and for me you know as I read and I read probably rather more than I should have done. There was a bridge between the two and and and the the better. Um, yeah. People who don't like Manfred Kets to bits in in Seattle, for instance. You know, great writer. Um, we were able to kind of bridge multiple um areas of of psychology and and and actually the developmentalist would say, look, there is a, there's a reasonable degree of flex in psychology for possibly up to 30 %. And then you go into it further and you look at the competency literature and you actually start to understand there's a conflation of identity like oh, you think you are. What do you think your personality is? And that ultimately drives behaviour which then you know drives outcomes but this but it's pretty pretty modelled within within the literature and then you have to kind of walk on a little bit and then young. No one wants to talk about young because young sort of he's he's pretty out there. I mean Jordan Peterson you know you know is famous for saying that if you if you if you talked about you know young it would be the end of your academic you know career. But actually you know I've got tremendous respect for young. Because for me, actually what he landed on, um, was the fact that, uh, some of these things are captured within the trait literature, right? So extroversion or introvert version are actually ultimately, yeah, polarities of psychology.
Guy Bloom 04:58
Types, right?
Jame Baker 05:00
Well, yeah. But you know Myers Briggs is based on, on on on young, right and and I and arguably you could say one of the reasons it's got really poor test, retest validity is perhaps people are developing right and and that's and that's the developmental journey and and for me some of the better literature that I've orientated towards is actually behavioral. Flexibility so and and the whole concept of behavioral flexibility is you need to kind of get to a point in order to be effective. Um, that you can work, work with your the opposite of your preference or where you've come from and on your developmental journey, if that makes sense. Because if you look at the leadership literature and if you're any kind of academic, would say. And even even a positive test rate with with cause and effect, you know that the that study is bounded to that context, right? It's you know you've captured a a result, but that's how it was in that context and it may or may not be transferable to it to another. And that's where when it gets a you know, you're getting into far messier theories where you know fundamentally you have to be comfortable with grayness, and, and and, um uh and and, the more that you sort of see these theories and theories are no more than a conceptual understanding of how the world is interacting. You you see how messy you know it. It is and. You know and I'll take you through some some observations but you know one of the the most powerful ones is one of my one of my networks of partner McKinsey who's used to lead the all practice here and I know he can shares this view that you know whatever an individual psychology is right a as powerful and effect on that right is the context within which they're operating now but. They're all um, you know, elements of of um, psychology that gives you greater resistance to context, if that makes sense. Uh and and and and I think if you look at the context that we're operating with at the minute, what has it been, right? I mean it's certainly but you know when I when I started writing about, you know. The relevance of leadership, psychology and a volatile, uncertain and the biggest context. Trust me, this was pre pandemic, you know, this was this was like quite a few years ago now and it always felt like I've manifested my kind of research because the world it seems like it's got so much more volatile and uncertain and I think everyone's hoping it might get a little bit less like that.
Guy Bloom 07:52
Just so I can make sure I'm keeping up with the main party, am I oversimplifying it? And the answer may be yes. Well, but am I oversimplifying it by saying if we talk about type and trait and saying that, look, there's a belief among some that there's a fixed edness to individual characteristics and then there's more, that is a preference, which is more developmental, which is why some psychometrics are OK for recruitment and some are more almost on the catalytic conversational side?
Jame Baker 08:22
Well, yeah, to be appropriate for recruitment, it would have to have test retest validity right so you'd have to be able to get the same result is is it likely to be? You know predictive um of of that which you are looking for right. And and you know, just just because something's widely used doesn't mean that it's, you know, necessarily the best tool for the job. It just means that it's better known and the only the most things have a power law applied to rate or the pretext paradox, which means that that which is used first. Tends to get used most and and and it's just because it was first, right? That's the point. And look, don't get me wrong, there is, you know, I'm a huge fan of of psychometrics, both from a developmental standpoint and also from an assessment standpoint. Primarily because they're, you know, people are naturally biased and if you don't think you are, you know that's probably not a good sign.
Guy Bloom 09:21
Well, that's your bias.
Jame Baker 09:22
Well, yeah, you're bias, you're bias so so do you think that you can do within the recruitment process to challenge? For us is, is, is is really really helpful and and you know and this is where where you kind of sort of this is where you kind of start to head into some of the paradoxes right and and and one of the paradoxes is. Um, yeah, the the constructs that of leadership emergence, right. So getting into a leadership role are materially different. From that, which makes you effective and I I can talk, you know, a little bit of detail around around that. So if you look at the literature you you get, you're gonna see that generally speaking, extroversion is a better predictor of leadership emergence than introversion. Uh, you know, openness to experience or curiosity is to to a certain degree. Uh, yeah, conscientiousness is right. You know, predictor of emergence. Neurosystem isn't. And it all looks terribly rosy at that point, doesn't it? So that's easy. We'll just assess for all of those things. But, you know, it's just not that simple. Because then you know what might be not quite so good about an extrovert. Well, you know, if you're an extrovert, you're likely to be. And that's. And you're firmly rooted there and you have no behavioral flexibility and you haven't learned to moderate your natural preference, for instance i'm i am one. So, you know, know thyself. You know, you, uh, you know you're less likely to listen right and and you know that's a tremendous impediment, particularly as you get to more senior levels of the organization where you're less likely to be told the truth. And I mean with with us that uh. Just watched the king recently and there's there's a great line in that. It's like you know, a king doesn't have friends. Yeah it's only enemies and followers and it's a little bit like that as senior leadership because you have power and people want something from you. So if you're not good at listening and enabling, you know, the psychological safety and being inclusive to allow what you're not hearing, yeah, you know, you're ultimately going to be blind to anything other than your own perspective. You know, yeah, that's, that's, that's you know, again, that's not, you know, might work in a certain context, but it's certainly not where you want to be all the time. Uh, yeah, curiousity is another interesting one and you know some of those profiles pretty high on that and and you know but downside of I I suspect one of the reasons it's not a bigger predictor of emergence it is is that you're less likely to accept leadership from from above because the underpinning. Desire that drives uh, you know curiosity is intellectual independence, right. You're you're seeking freedom through intellect fundamentally and that that's the that's the driver that sits underneath it. But you know again in today's world where frankly you know how you did things yesterday is far less relevant. It's really it's really important to find out how things might be emerging right. So you know leaders should be leading asked whether the whole leadership be learners come come from. Um, so I mean, I can go on. I don't want to kind of get hit you with laser specificities, but you get my point.
Guy Bloom 12:58
Couple of things in that. I think one in particular is this idea around context because if we said for example I am giving a direction. Of context, that is an emergency with a lack of knowledge or understanding of the answer from others. But actually I've ridden the horse before. Therefore I'm being looked to to furnish an answer, because actually without even answer there's going to be a failure point. It makes sense. But actually of course if I'm offering that directive to people that are already know the answer or have opinion. So the context is, which I think can take somebody from being seen as having a position of. Authority to being authoritative.
Jame Baker 13:43
But it but it's a continuum isn't it you know and but but if you look at, if you look at all of these things right, you know you know conscientiousness similarly, you know, you know certain relationships elements of transformational leadership but you take that too far you know. You can be you know highly controlling you know you you can um you know push your team too hard right. And and again in a context where and I'm I'm I'm deliberately using kind of trait language because I can get into other more developmental psychology language just people gonna be more familiar with it and that's where I think some of these some of these more traditional approaches and thinking are more. Problematic in in a very high uncertain context, particularly when organizations are just massively lean. You know and and and and. You know. One of the things that you know, I've I've observed is. Um, you know, you can, you can get away with um a tremendous amount right. You know there's I think for one of the rules of power, isn't it success forgives everything, you know, but but you know and it's I think Jeffrey and prefer said that you know, it's actually success. If you actually successful people will forgive you a tremendous amount you know. You know but the problem is it's very difficult.
Guy Bloom 15:08
Or they'll tolerate tolerate yeah, amazing amount. Forgiveness is one thing, but people then get tolerated for success. And actually there shouldn't be a tolerance, right?
Jame Baker 15:17
But, but, but when the wheels come off the bus, you know and and and that's the problem. I think there's a lot of wheels of a lot of buses at the minute actually you know how you've treated people. And and and the degree to which you know you've been able to take with you. I mean I think you know one of the you know the couple of nice leadership coaches leadership is a social process to achieve collective results right. It's direction another One Direction alignment and commitment you need all parts of that triangle and. People will. People will follow you if you're if you're leading successfully, right? But you you can't get alignment unless you've kind of got IQ and EQ. If if that makes sense. If you can't take people with you, um. Equally if you've got a league, um. Uh, you know, um, but no, no, go. You're not going to get commitment. You know, because you know if an equally if you can't, you know, pace set to a reasonable degree. You know that isn't gonna be role modelled and that's one of the things that that you can, it's just very different and I've really enjoyed working for big companies is you should see the theory or the practice, whatever it might be. But then you see it play out in the organization. You it's like a kind of never ending doctoral study because you're you're just in it um and and and that's that's one of the things I really enjoyed in sort of having one foot in academia and 1 foot in you know in the context I was operating with because it was this never ending.
Guy Bloom 16:58
Petri dish.
Jame Baker 16:59
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, with volatility being the consistent.
Guy Bloom 17:04
This curiosity led to this academic focus, which then obviously. Manifests due course into the operation. You know, there's a broad brush of what you might be interested in. Usually when you're doing academia, there's a singular focus. So there's a there's a dissertation or an yeah, sure. Where did your focus go?
Jame Baker 17:20
Yeah, so I was yeah i mean the I said I ended up stealing bits and bobs from developmental psychology, fundamentally. But by far the most interesting element for me was. You know different names, but you know cognitive complexity would be the one one word for for it. Ego development is is another word for it. But fundamentally this is the sort of Piaget atarian development of personality and brain, if you like hesitating to say intelligence, but of course it is a form of intelligence. Uh, you know, over time. And the the, the, the real, really, really messy aspect of it is, of course, and it's helpful if you understand it from a younger perspective, I think. Is that the nature of your personal journey will kind of depend where you started from but fundamentally what's what's going on is there's an integration of your personality and your evolving through meaning making stages and and and integrating the world into a more complex through each stage of cognitive cognitive development and and and and if you understand that. That that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out that what you really want is the more cognitively developed or behaviourally sophisticated people at the top of the organization because they're going to be role modeling the. Behavior oh yeah, the the the psychology, which then drives the behaviors in a sufficiently nuanced and contextualized way uh, that you need for for for a given context.
Guy Bloom 19:19
So we have different. Starting points, yeah, life happens to us quite there are inputs into our development that are conscious or unconscious, and then at a certain point that's developing or has developed into our ability to reflect, observe, seek feedback, seek council, and have an adaptive learning mindset to a greater or lesser degree or not, to or to have a relatively fixed mindset. And there's something, if I'm hearing you correctly. It says still is that integration of self of others and that ability to take that on board and it not overwhelm or frighten us. We become more by the more we can understand and and take in if I heard that correctly.
Jame Baker 20:03
Yeah, yeah. So I mean in terms of outcomes you you know, you, you, you're you're correct. You're, you're you know and and and how you get those outcomes in terms of of change, you get it through feedback through failure typically and more importantly from admitting your. Failure and choosing to take it as a learning opportunity and that's where kind of growth mindset you know comes in and and you know and I but equally if I could come back to the point that I made in the beginning which is. Actually how you're treated and the context that you're operating in is is as important and actually if you look at Carol Dweck study on mindset that came from that that her realization came from the point if you if you took two equal weighted you know groups of students you treated one as geniuses and and and one as you know average or below average. What happened? Well the geniuses gave ended up profiling as geniuses and and and and and vice versa and and you know you know. And and yet that's why it's important that you know you know you you learn to kind of fail forward if you like and and and and choose to take a developmental attitude towards towards that you know get get comfortable with the fact that you're not perfect and and and essentially you can grow from that and and there's there's a brilliant. But I'm sure sort out sort of a coffee shop but it was all the things that Abraham Lincoln had failed at and it was this gloriously long and what you know funny enough actually resilience was one of the the the constructs I used for my academic studies. Because if you're not just prepared to fail repeatedly the dust yourself down and get up and go again but have the humility to kind of go like yeah OK that was my bad. I don't responsibility for that and I'm gonna do better next time then then you're you're you're you're never going to grow.
Guy Bloom 22:00
And, and this is Grandpa quite heavily into the martial arts have been all my life. And one of the things I've noticed is that the the people that get good are the ones that train with people. That are better than they are and they are in control. You have to very quickly. When you learn very quickly you get your ego handed to you and anybody that can't muster it and control it doesn't get training partners. Nobody wants to play because if it's all about you're winning, then you're going to hurt people, you're going to try and dominate. You're not going to learn. It becomes an agreed. You know, even though it can be quite serious because somebody's trying to do whatever they're trying to do to you, there's a level of vulnerability in the learning afterwards. And that willingness to go, yeah, I I know what's gonna happen. I know I'm gonna get beat, but I'm gonna get beaten by an expert and I'm gonna learn but yeah, not but, but, but but who do you wanna hang out with right? You wanna hang out with a guy that's highly proficient, right? It's so he's kind of you think about it from a leadership standpoint. You know, maybe a master may have great functional and technical expertise, but fundamentally I'm trying to find a polite word. They're not an idiot. You wanna hang out with them so they they have aspects of their humanity that they worked on as hard as their their, their, their practical and technical skills.
Guy Bloom 23:21
And what's really interesting, especially in the modern age, is the practicality of traditional martial arts. And what you have is that recognition that, again, these things are very contextual and the experience of individuals. So I've been in the room sometimes with people who I'm technically more capable than, and I'm more proficient. And and higher ranked than. But if we stepped outside, they'd stick me in the boot of their car and I'd never be seen again. Because there's a difference between you no but for some people right there, because they're from that domain and I'm from this domain and and that's that interesting thing about that academic transfer in the training room. It can be very intellectualized It can be, it can look great on a flip chart. But in reality, right, it's different.
Jame Baker 24:09
But also like how much do you want it right? You know, I've, I've, I mean, my, my, my thing was by this is because it's associated with very low IQ motorbikes. But football is really you know but but you know if you if you go if you go motorcycle racing you, you've you've absolutely want to be in the fastest qualifying group possible ideally with people that loads better than you because you will they they will bring you on because people come round the outside with a lean angle that you just kind of going how is that even happening we're gonna bits flying off, sparks flying off them and that's how you learn right? You learn by getting beaten. And and it's it's.
Guy Bloom 24:49
And really, how did they do?
Jame Baker 24:52
That yeah. And and and and what's really interesting is the better they are, right. You know, very often the more benevolent they are. I mean, some might, you know, best best sort of learning experiences going from guy called Jeremy McWilliams who's sort of. Famously kind of beat. I think he beat Rossi or something on on a on a 2 stroke and and incredibly benevolent because honestly what am I to him right. But you know but if there's ego involved he might be kind of trying to compete with me or something but but actually if you're if you're really that good there's there's no reason not to lift other people up.
Guy Bloom 25:27
I do recognise that I I think that's seems to be one of life's truths that the people that have got there by that route of having cancelled. Listening to themselves, having to have words with themselves, having to, you know, recognising that they're far from perfect. Those are the people that, generally speaking have the capacity to engage and develop and make time for others because they wouldn't have got to where they are without others doing it for themselves. And those are the people that seem to get follow ship and a real deep kind of admiration and inherent respect because they're not just focused on. Their own wondrousness, I guess.
Jame Baker 26:07
But, but, but, but I think we, you know, the the other point that we could integrate into it, right is is is motivation like how how much you really want it you know because you know, you you go go fight a guy. That's like few things. Putin's finding out with the Ukraine, right. Ukrainians are defending their homeland. That's a whole world of different, you know, motivation, right. And you can have the capability to do something, but do you need to do it. Want to do it because you know in in order to do something you know spectacular you know there there are sacrifices to be made and and and at a given point in your life in a different context that might make sense to you in another it might not. And I think actually if you look at you know debate around diversity inclusion this is this is one of the big paradoxes because most leadership jobs are incredibly demanding and if you've got a family and you wish to. An active participant in that family, and frankly, it doesn't make any difference if you're a man or a woman. There is some, some tough choices to be made and if you even if you when you speak to you know some of the fantastic kind of female CEOs, then they will be saying, you know, I wasn't necessarily the PepsiCo see it was it Indra? Right now that she would sort of on record saying it wasn't a terribly present parent and it was only possible because actually my husband was able to you know support my career at a given point in time and and and that that might be you might have all the capability but it just not might not make sense to you you know at a given point in time. So I wouldn't I wouldn't underestimate the power of the underdog or the guy that just wants it more yeah but but but capability and need and desire are are separate. Constructs, I think.
Guy Bloom 28:02
Well, I think this is a big thing that I do hear about people that have a I will outwork you attitude, which is if I can't make myself.
Jame Baker 28:09
Associated with consciousness, by the way.
Guy Bloom 28:12
Yeah, if I can't. I mean, if I just can't become cleverer, you know? I mean, I don't mean I'm dumb. I maybe I'm good enough to play the game, but I'm just not a smart of some of the other buggers around.
Jame Baker 28:21
But it's a good strategy.
Guy Bloom 28:23
But I can outwork them.
Jame Baker 28:24
Yeah, and but then, you know. And you know, uh, that's a style of leadership. Page setting style and. You know, uh, direction, alignment, commitment, you know, commitments important, you know and, and and people will run with you for a certain degree. You know, time. But you know all organizations are having something of a Wellness crisis. You know and and you know you. You know you don't win a marathon right? And the corporate world, I always have always said to, you know, my teams like this, this is a marathon. It's ain't a Sprint. You know, you need to run at a pace you can sustain. And and if you're getting divorced and your children are having issues, you know, people to think of themselves, you know this is true. Interestingly, this is sort of relevant some from developmental psychology. So it comes from the science of cognitive development. You start off highly egocentric, right? Trump has been famously kind of. Yeah, but, but with this is all about him. So your your circle of who you are and what your identity is is very, very, very small. And then over time, the you know what you you care about expands, right? And it might expand to include maybe your team, maybe your family. But actually what you're wanting leaders to do is to have, you know, a commitment to the organization and actually what's being demanded now of leaders by society. And then you know ultimately by shareholders as well is to have a an awareness of the the impact on on the world more broadly hence the the rise of. Uh, you know, this is sustainability movement and, and what's really interesting is if you look at the the, the kind of metadata on consciousness and interestingly, consciousness within leaders. The the. The number of leaders of a higher level of, you know, cognitive complexity or later stages of E development is is expanding. Why is expanding? Well, why does it expand? It expands when your current way of of making meaning and processing your current environment is no longer fit. You know, it requires pressure to move from one stage to another. So kind of what you're what you're actually seeing is. The way that people are, um, uh, you know, making sense of what's around them is is evolving and and it's evolving because it has, has to. I mean, Keegan. He's a sort of Harvard professor and one of the more prolific writers in in Syria, you know, actually makes this, this, this, this point that perhaps human society is, is living longer in in order to evolve into the type of consciousness that's that's necessary for us to survive as a planet right and and and if you and if you look at the UM, you know the types of problems that we're now wrestling with as as a global society, right. So I mean one of the things you often talked about within. Uh development literature on organizational or team basis is is the movement between independent which is associated with the self authoring mind you know, high levels of achievement or orientation? Um, conscientiousness, sometimes called the age of of conscientiousness and interdependent right so if anyone has worked in an organization where teams aren't collaborating, it's not. There's a slightly dysfunctional team. People aren't thinking across the enterprise. We aren't partnering with our providers. We need to think, you know, think in terms of a broader ecosystem. It's it's that shift. And actually if you think about it from a global perspective, how do you solve? A problem like global warming with a nation state mindset? Difficult you know nationalism isn't gonna fix that.
Guy Bloom 32:49
So there's something here then, about that being in a tribe is one thing, but being tribal is, you know, it's it's good to belong, it's good to one to to care. Yeah, of course it becomes protectionist if it becomes US winning them. Losing, which can happen globally, but also can happen between teams, between departments, between sectors, pans out as being an inherent truth, I guess.
Jame Baker 33:08
I mean, you know at the end of the day it's it's a problem if it doesn't work for you. So and I guess that's the point when when it worked for for a social group to be. You know, competitive because there was enough resources or whatever it might be, you know, and that was fine. You know, is is is as complex as it needs to be, it's requisite for its context. But when the problem is such that you need to fix it in a broader ecosystem. Then you need to have, you know behaviors mindsets, you know, ways of comprehending that are congruent with that. That's that's kind of the point and and and and the and the very nature of, you know the the the problems that organizations in plurality, you know across many many sectors. Uh, but also Society of facing, you know, are independent, interdependent in, in, in, in nature. Uh, and and yet there are equally, you know, um and Jordan. Things have been quite like him, you know, really kind of uh. Outspoken on on this topic. Um, you know, you know equally, you can't be kind of like massively globalist um an actually all, you know, adopts a kind of morally superior and ironically egocentric aspect to it and and then not listen to the people on the ground.
Guy Bloom 34:40
Jordan Peterson is the fellow that I almost want to go what he said as in he's he's obviously done. He's done the thinking on my behalf and he's explained it in a manner that if I was that if if that event, that's what I'd just said. So I'm a big.
Jame Baker 34:52
Fan, you know? Yeah click, click, click. Clever guy, clever guy.
Guy Bloom 34:55
How this manifests in the reality of the operation we have these observations we have these insights, we have this relative clarity or belief that comes from the learning and the academia, I guess, I suppose the question is the transfer of that into the workplace and the tolerance or the interest in an organization going beyond just method and process to the development of the human being. Because actually that means we're going to have a more rounded person and they're getting people to connect to that if we're actually not looking at just the next six months. We're looking at the next six years, you know, bringing that into play.
Jame Baker 35:34
One of the principles that I tried to adopt and and like all knowledge, all this stuff is stolen with pride, right? With the idea of the I think I'll probably have a credit key with this one. Yeah, the deliberately developmental organization right. So if if you're, if you understand that there's a paradox between leadership and emergence and where you want someone to be right, you're just gonna have to deal with that because that's just. It's it's there right and and sometimes you're gonna have to put you know people in jobs you're trying to as little as possible on 100 % there but if you can just give them a a process and some support scaffolding that says. You know what? You know you're not there yet. But this is your ladder and here's some clarity around the things you can can improve and put in the infrastructure. Uh, and the rigging, if you like to try and make sure they're getting that feedback, um, on on a, you know, regular basis. And when I say feedback, I mean um, you know. One of the factors of leadership emergencies, they're very, very good at managing upwards, right? Um, you know. What you really want is a leader and are arguably some, you know, in academia some people say the best for leader research what the people of that being led to think, you know as well as the organizational outcomes are being delivered. You know and you can have short term outcomes and not great leadership and that won't work that, that won't work medium or or or or or long term. And and that's that's something that you know I've I've always you know tried to kind of work with as much as possible. So try and get the capacity that you would you would like an ideal basis but if you if you haven't done that then then try and kind of get the. Enough quality of of developmental input. Um and and particularly in in ways that super hard for people's ego to reject right. And and that's the point because it's.
Guy Bloom 37:50
The kind of stuff that you put into that camp so.
Jame Baker 37:55
Psychometrics are a great starting point. Because you know. You know so let's take personality traits that start with that, right. So if you take something like a personality trait instrument, you know, I sit, sit down with you and and you can go, well, I I don't agree with that. And I go and I asked the conversation were going well, you know, that's really interesting because that's what you've said about you. That's what you've said is important because you've done this in a recruitment context. So essentially what you've done is you've not only told me. What you think you've told me what you think I want to hear because you wanted to get the job right. So that's that's so that's one one thing I mean I I I personally like. You know tools where you don't necessarily know the right answer. Because you gonna get what you're gonna get and that there are, you know, qualitative techniques you can use on that to get a sense of someone's self concept. And there's also there are different measures of ego development, all cognitive complexity that you can use as long as you pick one that's valid and all of them are. You know and and and then equally you can use um. I'm a big fan of fan of this three sixty, feedback because, um again, you may think you know whatever you think about yourself, but if other people don't agree with you that there's there's some really good material there. And and you know, I I personally think a mash-up of all of those things along with kind of rigorous competency assessment, which is pretty much my kind of research design to be honest. In academia, is is, you know, uh is your best shot at Toronto really. Capture somebody? The problem with all of that stuff is it's just expensive. But increasingly. You know, um, machine learning and and these types of things are making that kind of stuff cheaper, so. You know, and I think that's that's that there's a you know. I think this this is, it's going to be easy to do a better job in, in, in, in, in the future. But ultimately you then also need somebody to hold the hand of that person with sufficient coaching skill to land it on them. Because if you just print, print out report, it's quite easy, particularly if you don't like it, to kind of rip it up and put it in the bin. And but of course I would say that a really good leader will be really interested in where they're not good because. That's one of the things you're looking for.
Guy Bloom 40:39
Yeah, when I run programs, I'm very keen on that, the facilitator being the coach. It's not that there's not a value to external coaching for independent need, but particularly when people on a developmental program, because I've seen you in the workshop, I've seen you for one or two days, I've seen those behaviors manifest in your interactions with other human beings and et cetera. I've done previous year three sixty, we're having conversations about that and the psychometrics. So I do think that having that ability. To not just have a conversation with you about the report, which is fantastically valuable, but actually if it's part of something where I've actually seen you in play, and because otherwise I can only accept what you're telling me as being the.
Jame Baker 41:20
Truth and there's a different level of data in that, isn't there? I mean, you know, I forget the the the ratios now, but it is I think like 60 % of communications visual, you know, and there's a whole another layer of communication. And you see the interaction of that you know between, uh, between individuals and it's it's um. Yeah no I'm I'm a I I think you know it's one of the things that I'm I've been a big exponent of is you know you can't you have to look at the leader and team as a kind of construct.
Guy Bloom 41:59
So we're looking for people that might be listening to this podcast and there could be peers of yours. They could be people in leadership roles. And they're looking forward over the next two 3-4-5 years and thinking what's the future, what's the future bringing? It's the lottery numbers. I'm asking you, James, but we look into the. Future, which is unknown exactly, you know, what should people be paying attention to, do you think that says, look, if you're going to navigate these waters, some known, some unknown, what would you kind of advise? Not necessarily the input, but where to focus?
Jame Baker 42:28
It's a that's a loaded question because of course the the kind of dodged the bullet answer, which is also correct is it kind of depends on the person and context. You know, it's funny, I've had this debate with, with some of my professors and I also had this debate with, with, with, with myself. It's like well. Yeah, everything's contextual and yet there are some trends aren't they you know um that that we, we we can kind of kind of lean on. So I think you know is it true to say that you know broadly speaking more customer orientated organizations have better long term outcomes. Yeah, you know if you have a leadership team of individuals that are. You know, results orientated, but also you know, uh, collaborative, um. And our results orientated in a way that incorporates a um, sophisticated understanding of a company's commercials and different ways of financial thinking, right. So our cognitively complex not only you know behaviorally but also in the financial aspects of business. Do do you have people that would you have a sufficient mix of people that have yeah sufficient functional and and and and um technical expertise. Uh, you know, a task orientation and a strategic or or orientation. Uh, probably one of the, the, the, the the biggest ones. And I'm embarrassed to say I always almost kind of missed it. And yeah, I didn't. I did miss it and didn't miss it because I was interested in. I was interested in, uh, the entrepreneurial personality, and I probably know less about that than I probably did. I did less research on this, but it was incorporated within my academic studies. And the reason for that is? Yeah, you know, uh, I think Clayton Christensen termed the, the term, you know, disruptive innovation, you know, um, quite a few years ago now interestingly the automotive industry. Was a highly disruptive innovation. And if you take uh, the, UM, uh, the internal combustion engine engine, that is something called a general purpose technology, right? General purpose technologies are innovation spawning, OK, So what they do is they, they take your disruptive innovation curve and they invert it, so they they radically increase it and essentially at the minute. Uh and and kind of. Cathy Wood sort of does a great job of explaining this if if you have one. Sort of reached her stuff from arc innovation in the US. And that's a investment fund, uh, did you know great in that sort of pandemic and obviously. Bon bons are up grace down at the minute, but I'm sure I'll invert overtime. But um you know that that essentially there are multiple general purpose technologies acting on each other at the current moment in time. And if you look at the yeah most of the companies that have done a that have prospered, they're all engaged in these technologies that's why digital artificial intelligence, robotic process automation. Um, uh, you know, printing, uh, you know, printing on demand as in physical printing on on demand you know are occurring period of time. So if you understand that the the pace of disruption is being massively accelerated by technology at a rate we've just never seen before. The the danger in having you know leaders there are orientated in how we did things previously because you know is is tremendous. So you know you're, you're so that's yeah arguably where curiosity becomes super important right because your ability to to look outside of your organization and understand how the external context is, is is evolving. Um as opposed to focus on what you're doing today or or did yesterday is is how things should be done in the future becomes you know tremendously important. I also think if if I'm honest the there's a an interesting sort of paradox in there with with neuroticism right. Because you wouldn't necessarily think that ohh yeah I wanna work with it. Emotionally unstable you know leader but you know it's might be handy to have some people out there that are focused on. On risk, right? Um and and and actually having a degree of neuroticism where you're focused on how this might go wrong. Isn't necessarily a bad thing, right? Uh and uh, you know what? But what you tend to get in leadership teams and McKinsey. Uh, uh wrote a great book, but you don't need the book. You just kind of need a mental image of a hockey stick. And the book is strategy. Beyond the hockey stick is, you know, within businesses, essentially, you know, most business plans look like a hockey stick. Uh, because they're they're, they're poorly researched people tend to look at the positive as but as opposed to the negative, you know it's their business plans are enriched with confirmation confirmation bias so that so they're euphemism which are quite like is what you end up with is then a hairy back right. Which is what actually happens to the business panels like this. And each year we're gonna we're gonna Max it out and it and it and it's because it's just wishful thinking and they haven't factored in you know. Yeah the the different scenarios are OK I get that's your best case scenario that's your your top right yeah what are the other ones and and how are you actually gonna plan against those other ones. And I think a lot of organizations are realizing that when things are as unstable, you know, when you've got kind of pandemics and all the knock on effects of of that, your ability to plan effectively you know? Is is is really pretty poor and and shell worked this out a long time ago. I mean the energy is sort of been playing this this pond for a while and you know scenario planning is is one of the ways that get you out of that and you know it's you know so. So I guess I guess there's a long way of saying. Being data-driven um, but recognizing limitations of being data driven in a highly volatile context is is probably not a bad thing to be.
Guy Bloom 49:29
So listen I'm just super alert to time. Just anything from you that is if somebody said James what book should I read, what podcast should I listen to. You know anything that you go look it's an old faithful but you know what I I read it 25 years ago and I, I read the, the the leadership challenge by Coos and Posner and and I just always recommend it to people. I just think it's a great deal for example you know.
Jame Baker 49:52
I'm not sure I've got one that I would recommend over and above. All the others so I mean look so so so the 7-7-7 transformations of of leadership on Harvard Business Review you know that's on action logics that's a really really nice article it's one of the most well read that's a really good introduction to cognitive development over time equally keegans work on on on the self authoring mind I one of my kind of. One of my kind of, uh, irritation buttons is is is strategy. And I'm a big fan of good strategy, bad, bad, bad strategy as as a book. What is Rumelt is the guy that wrote that. That's probably right on for ages cause I could do but. Yeah, yeah. And I'll, I'll throw in one more, uh, which is the neurotic organisation by Manfred Kets street, no that's not the classic.
Guy Bloom 50:51
Boom, there we go. So listen, I'm going to keep you on for a few more minutes just to make sure everything loads up. But from me personally, the audience that we have, just thank you so much for your time. I think it's been invaluable. It's given an insight into you and I think you've given some value, which I think will probably one of those podcasts that may have to be listened to twice. So we'll see, but thank you so much absolutely it's great. Great fun guys. I thought it might be so. I always enjoyed our chats.
Guy Bloom 51:17
That's it. So I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please share so others get to hear about us and subscribe so you keep up to date on new episodes. Also visit living brave com if you want to connect with me and find out more about executive coaching, team effectiveness and changing culture. And of course, you can buy my book living Brave leadership on Amazon. So on that note, see you soon.