Jenni Smyth, Head of Leadership, Learning, Talent and D&I for Corporate Units at BT

Jenni Smyth is incredibly experienced in developing strategies and leading work that builds organisational effectiveness and enables the delivery of business plans. 

She has huge experience in HR leadership, having had accountability for all elements of HR and led specialist learning and talent teams. Jenni is a  natural strategic thinker, experienced in understanding commercial priorities and working with leadership teams to ensure the right people focus sits at the heart of delivering them. 

Jenni and worked together when I delivered a wonderful leadership programme into Experian, where Jenni was a key part of that interface.

We talked about:

• Leadership development
• Getting engagement
• Letting people learn naturally
• Learning as a body of work
• Making sure people buy into the craft, so they are self-motivated to learn
• Letting the learning come from all angles

To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.

The link to everything CLICK HERE
UK: 07827 953814
Email: guybloom@livingbrave.com
Web: www.livingbrave.com

Transcript

Guy Bloom    00:00 

Welcome to leadership bites with myself, your host, guy bloom. This is a leadership podcast where I have conversations with colleagues, I chat with guests, and sometimes they'll be just me talking. You can connect with me at livingbrave.com and when you enjoy the episode, subscribe and please tell everyone.
 
 

Guy Bloom    00:19 

Jenny, Absolutely Fabulous to have you on this episode of Leadership Bites welcome.
 
 

Guy Bloom    00:26 

Thank you. Really good to be here. Thanks for the invite.
 
 

Guy Bloom    00:29 

Now we know each other from the past, and as I always do when I start these episodes, I say this and I know who you are, but please just introduce yourself to those that are listening.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    00:39 

So, Jenny Smyth, I am a HR professional, I think. I certainly try to be most days. Background in business partnering and then latterly in the last, gosh, feeling old now, but 15 years doing leadership development, learning talent, all that stuff that I'm really passionate about for me and the wonderful side of HR worked at a number of different businesses and now at BT doing leadership Learning D and I bit of a broad role, hopefully bringing lots of my experiences to bear, yeah.
 
 

Guy Bloom    01:16 

And I always notice. When we've been in the game for a little while we've got there's a lot that we could talk about and you know we we I was trying to figure how many years ago was it that we actually wow.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    01:32 

I was pregnant with my son in the latter part of what we were doing and he is now 13. So it's 13 years? Yeah wow. Doesn't feel like 13 years. Most days yeah and what happens in this game? It does in everybody's role, doesn't it? But HR, culture, learning, transformation, space, I always think it's like dog years, you know, it's kind of, it may seem like one year to the outside world, but it felt like 7 when we were doing it.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    02:05 

And that's why we look how we look then, guy.
 
 

Guy Bloom    02:08 

That must be it. That must be it. I'd like to talk about the stuff that you love talking about the stuff that gives you an enthusiasm. Stuff that kind of fires you up. So let me just ask you that first question. What's the stuff that you like putting your energy into and the stuff that you like to think about and talk about?
 
 

Jenni Smyth    02:30 

Well, I'm, I guess what experience has shown me is the importance of leadership in organisations, and that might sound a bit trite, but I'm really passionate about leadership, the difference it makes in all its forms, when it works, when it doesn't. And I guess as part of that as well, because so much of my professional life has been about learning and development and making things land and stick, kind of the symbiosis between leadership and learning. How important leadership is in the culture of learning and development. And really making things stick. It's such a critical interplay and we kind of know it academically, but I've noticed wherever I work. You know, we end up getting stuck on some of the same things and it's all coming back on the whole to the climate being created. So I just, I'm really interested by it, engaged in it, I read about it, I attend stuff to learn more about it. So I guess, yeah, long answer to a short question, but that's that's what fires me up.
 
 

Guy Bloom    03:34 

No, that's great. And the podcast is called Leadership Bites and one of the things that so you're on the right, you're in the right place, right.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    03:42 

Hey, that's good. You got something right.
 
 

Guy Bloom    03:44 

Are they right? I've been building up the podcast with personalities and sort of characters and I'm shifting it now towards that real HR talent culture space, which is where I live. I just recognize that I actually was drifting away from having conversations with people about what I actually like talking about. So this is part of that for me as well. So when we talk about leadership and we talk about culture it's an easy thing to say, which is, you know, the tone gets set from the top. People in charge who get looked to are the ones that define the way it's gonna be around here. Yeah, just then it's most simple. Don't probably need to read a white paper on it. I could probably guess that's true.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    04:22 

I think there's a lot in that, yeah.
 
 

Guy Bloom    04:23 

Yeah, and I'm. Interested, I guess, and I'd and I'd be like your thoughts on this. I noticed that intellectually people don't disagree with the idea of development very often. No, you know that idea of of course it's valuable to learn. Of course it's valuable to take on board new information. And when you've got what I would call emerging talent that like sponges, generally speaking you can. And then you've got to be careful because you can tell them any old thing and they'll go, yes, that's fantastic. Because they have no frame of reference but the hungry then you start to and we talk about leadership in the sense of that's preparing leaders and I generally. Kind of noticed that when we get into that mid to senior tier, there are some that have a very connected relationship with learning and being a lifelong learner. And then there are those that I can't be that wrong because look how far I've got.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    05:21 

Yes, for.
 
 

Guy Bloom    05:22 

Sure, I've got all the indicators to tell me that I've been a success. Therefore, even when I'm wrong, I'm probably still right a lot of the time. And then there are those that want to do it intellectually, but they can't find the space for it. They just cannot, you know, have you seen how busy? I am, you know, and it's the old sharpening the sort of thing if you don't stop and sharpen the saw, it's gonna blunt kind of analogy. So I'm interested in jumping in to this regardless of what goes into a program, regardless about anything like that, when you are looking at a diverse group of people of bringing the idea of learning to them and getting people at predominantly at a senior level interested. So before we even turn up getting them interested, you know, when they experience it, it'll either be of a quality that engages them and galvanizes them just getting them to the start point of turning up and with a level of engagement, what have you experienced? Because it's not always Oh yeah, we'd all have to do that. What budget do you need crack on?
 
 

Jenni Smyth    06:28 

Well, and I sort of think. We're still in the world a lot of the time where development particularly at a senior level is seen as recognition. You know, investment in me and I'm sort of owed this. I should be on this premium program you know, at this beautiful hotel doing this that the other, it's rarely starting with a framing of. Organisationally, something's got to be different. You're part of that, you know, and this is what, this is what we need to do together to change it. And I'm sort of, I may well harp on quite a bit about accountability because I think when it comes to learning and development, that's the real missing bit. I think setting context and expectation up front so that the skin in the game is of course there's something in it for me personally. I will develop, I will grow, this will enrich me. But do you know what? In my role here now, today, this is a part of my job. This is what I need to deliver on, learn from, take something from. Because the whole reason we do these things, whatever they might be, is to shift things, to change things, to create, you know, a better culture, a more effective level of performance and engagement. But I I find quite often that it does work when you do that. But what's often lacking is the So what? What am I signing up to? Day one? I'm here. I'm up for this. And what does up for this look like at the end of this? I'm going to be doing this and you can hold me to account in these ways and actually if I don't do it, that won't be OK you know, we'll have a different conversation and it feels as though we're really hesitant, particularly when we think about development, certainly not in other areas because if you don't deliver your sales target or you know the customer Net Promoter score isn't where it needs to be, you would absolutely have that conversation. Development is still still seen as. In our after not always an extra thing I think we're doing or isn't it great? If I've got time, I'll be there for that. All this really important operational thing came up for me, so I couldn't be at that one. But you know, I'll be at the next one. And I'm fascinated by it because this is universally true wherever I've worked, however amazing the development is that we might be embarking on um. You know, and and still. It's OK to drop out of things, to not fully commit to things, to not be present. And I'm just, I don't know the answer as to why. It is because I've worked on various various programmes to develop all sorts of skills, capabilities, levels of awareness and always you get this distribution curve of people, um, and it could be fabulous, really switched on, you know, wonderful people and they're just not there and they don't really see, they're not feeling that sense of. Accountability around what they're taking out.
 
 

Guy Bloom    09:25 

I really hear that and I I wonder. If there's a few jigsaw pieces going on with something like this, which is some people have had great development experiences. So generally speaking, yeah, I had a coach once for example and it was great. So if you're going to offer me another coach of that calibre again I'm in. Does that point of reference for what good is others, it's it's on a development program where I had a coach and it was just poor, it just didn't connect with me or they have a benchmark reference for not wanting to do things and then some have got the day job, which is. Significantly overwhelming of course. And I then just wonder that with all of those truths going on. But the reality is if your line manager says let me know that program, goes let me know what you're doing. When is it on Tuesday? It's on Tuesday or afterwards? Let me know what you thought about it or you need anything from all that stuff that we talked about that pre joining line up. Is it just as simple as you've got to galvanise that senior layer above to take a blinking? Contrast and to get to get with the party, basically.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    10:32 

It's Chris that's critical and without that, you're always going to be getting a suboptimal outcome, you know, because if I don't feel as though my manager is in partnership with me on this journey, I'm going on, whatever it might be. Then actually, I'll give it a bit of interest, but I'll be doing it off the side of my desk because I know they're not really going to ask me about it. They won't probably hold me to account on what I got from it, what I'm doing with it because they're all so disinterested, apathetic, what? Whatever i mean, it's such a critical thing. Yeah, but and it's critical. That relationship, you know, if we think about what we do in HR, if the line manager relationship isn't there, we struggle to do everything. Great performance, leadership, talent. Leadership succession, because that dialogue, that ongoing, I care about you. I'm challenging you on supporting you. I'm stretching you, I'm here by your side, um, I'm your main advocate, your main sponsor. If that isn't happening, then everything's compromised. And I think we spend a lot of time in HR trying to compensate for the lack of this relationship and the lack of perhaps people seeing it as the main thing you're there to do, not selling widgets or whatever. When you're leading, you're leading. And I think that that's another conundrum. And it's so true. And actually when we run programs you know, wherever I've been, we'll always ask this question around, you know, what conversation have you had with your line manager coming into this? What's that given you? And often you'll know it's well, we didn't, we haven't talked about it or I might, I might have grabbed 5 minutes. And of course there's people always who have had that in depth discussion and they're the people who were fired up yeah and then I'm going to go back and talk about it and. I mean, it's like anything we do in life, isn't it? You know, you think about school and you think, you know, as a parent. When children aren't reading and they're not engaging with the parent at home in reading, guess what? They're not that interested in reading and everything else starts to suffer. And the role we play in that partnership with the education system, it's no different in business. And we still need that, that, that collaboration, that partnership. And a lot of what I've done in all the roles I've had, it's been really trying to think about how do we get line managers bothered about this, interested in this. And tried a number of things to do that and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Um, yeah and and yeah, I was going to say that just to go back to one of your previous points about programs and engaging people. I think the other thing that we do have to hold our hands up and say is, you know, in organisations sometimes we're culpable for not setting it up right, because it's easier, isn't it sometimes to just put a program out there and say everybody will go on this, this is a program for everyone and everybody will benefit and the more senior you. That the less valid that is, you know, the more I look at development, it needs to be personalized and i know everybody 's talking about that now. But then you talked about coaching. But yeah, we absolutely need to know particularly like at director level, what are your gaps? How self aware are you today? What's working, what's not, what do you need to leverage your strengths to be more effective and that will be different normally to the person sitting next to you or in another business area, but still we persist in. Here's the program that's going to resolve all issues for you and there is a place where you have themes that need tackling together and you need that community 100 %. There is, but there's also a much bigger place now I think, for personalisation and helping people with with them where they're at. So yeah, there's a lot there, but that was just what was springing to mind in the conversation we're having.
 
 

Guy Bloom    14:19 

I have a sense of one of the things that I tend to say, do you want training or transformation and if you want training within reason. It probably doesn't matter who you get in, as long as they're competent yes as long as they are personable and they are competent in their delivery, it almost doesn't matter. If you want transformation, this is where your next tier above have to be in the game. They have to be in the game to the point where they're going to have, and I think it's very simple, they're going to have expectations. And I think that's just almost the easiest way of saying it. You can mandate that they talk to somebody here and they talk to somebody there, but actually if you're having to mandate. Then the chances are they haven't really got expectations, they're just fulfilling requirements. But if they've got expectations, they'll just pick up the conversation. It'll come out as it organically does because they want something to come from it that actually the work we've got to do first, either with that semia tier and we've got to work with them to buy into it and connect to it. If you're not going to do that, you're basically running a training program. And then that will have its effect where some people will get great value from it, but some will just get through it and but if you do it the other way, then it's going to be very, very different.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    15:32 

Yeah, completely because I think well, going back to your point about buying in at the senior level, I mean, yes, that's critical. I think that's critical in lots of things and feeling able to say when you're not getting a sense of that personal ownership and to question sort of purpose and outcome and intent of what's going to go on and whether it is about ticking a box. Because we ought to do it and everybody else is asking for it, or whether it's to use your words, you know, we're looking to transform. We're looking to make a commitment here to something over the long term. I think it's everything. I think quite often you either don't get into the room to have that conversation or you're coming in too late to have that conversation, or, you know, in all honesty, sometimes you follow the pack and do what you need to do, kind of knowing it really won't because that person at the top or people at the top are not fully committed. Um, and actually we could save a lot of money in time for you probably having those debates much earlier and in a more candid way. But you do tend to find in the big corporates this whole pleasing of the top team can prevail. And if they've asked for something, even if you're picking up on some of those nuances in language or even just body language or dynamics, that this is not feeling like something that's going to land as it needs to. And you know, I've been there as I'm sure we all have, you can sometimes take the action and and do it anyway. And I think that's. That's just being brutally honest, kind of knowing it's not going to get where it could get, um, I think it's just so important. But then I'm going back to my context. You know why now? Why this moment in time for us? Have we really got the energy, the focus and the commitment of our leaders to do this really well? All those questions need to be part of that framing to say it's OK to say not now, it's OK to say we wait because this is happening and then it's going to be a really good. Time for this. And sometimes we seem hesitant to do that and because there's often a desire to do something. You know, when you have a vacuum of learning or people want learning people are not happy about their development. Let's do something. Yes we know we're busy and this other things going on but we'll do it anyway and and actually then to step in and and sometimes I've done this and to say actually no, not now. Maybe later. Let's reconvene when we know where this change has LED us to. And I'm, I am gonna go back again to. Sort of learning and development often being seen as. You know, a gift or recognition, uh ohh, it's OK. People have been invested in, you know, I'll use a live example for us. Everybody at BT's got a LinkedIn learning licence. You know, that's not a cheap thing to offer to everybody. There's a lot of great work going on around sort of creating pathways and box sets and all the rest of it. So you're not just wading through this. You know, huge amount of learning, but the traction on it isn't as good as we would like it to be, you know?
 
 

Guy Bloom    18:32 

But it never has been, has it anywhere?
 
 

Jenni Smyth    18:34 

No and and yeah, you know, it never has been right. That's so true i remember I was group talent manager at home serve at some many eons ago and there's something called 50. I don't think it exists anymore. But anyway, the point is 50 video it was. Yes, yeah, video clips, I thought that was.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    18:54 

Similar concept, yeah, for that time.
 
 

Guy Bloom    18:57 

Got a licence for X amount of hundred people to have access to the great and the good talking for two to five minutes. I mean, they were arduous, right? But it was just great people telling great stories. Some people they were on it and they loved it. Others didn't even bloody sign in. These are the things I think are quite powerful that when you're starting out in the game, if you have these experiences, when you're quite young, that's quite young, but new into the roles you can very quickly pick up on. Now what's going on here? It's like it's all yeah, we can do an online forum. I just go. Let me know how that works out for you.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    19:33 

Yeah, totally.
 
 

Guy Bloom    19:34 

Yeah, but I've heard about, yeah, I know. I've never seen one work. I've seen it work for a week. I've seen it work for a for a month. And then there'll be a couple of piratos, Lord lessons, who keep it going. And the reality, I think is that you can create opportunity, you can't manufacture things that everybody resonates with. And the way I think about that is Coldplay of this fantastic band, and they're global and some people. Can't stand them. They're awful. They're not awful, are they? And I may or may not like them, but they're obviously light if you say that. I've given you all of Coldplay's music to listen to.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    20:08 

It's a great analogy.
 
 

Guy Bloom    20:09 

You've gotta put every genre on there to appeal to every kind of person because it doesn't matter how great it is, it just there are certain people that don't resonate.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    20:19 

But it's not, isn't it? It's that bit of. You know, I've gone to the supermarket and I only want to go down, you know, I've gone to see if I haven't got a list and I want someone to show me what I need in the supermarket now because I don't want to put any effort or time into working out what I need and I do. I talk about that when we introduce what is available, you know, and it's the same everywhere, everywhere mostly will have some sort of learning Academy. There'll be all sorts of stuff on there, which, as you've said, we'll all won't float your boat if you don't know where you're starting from and what you're looking for. And you haven't done any self reflection, had no dialogue with manager got, you know, all that stuff about what's informing choices. You know, when I go to a supermarket, I think about what I want to eat. So think about what you want to learn. It's your accountability and you're right. And then share with others. Cascade to your team. Talk about the main thing you took from something you read. I mean, you know, myself, I I will listen to podcasts, I will pick up articles around my passions, around my interest. Because I'm really curious about, and I'll do that through a variety of resources, but no one will come and say to me, Jenny, what have you, you know, have you read this? Have you watched this video on LinkedIn? Why not? You're not learning if you're not watching that. And we get in big corporates because we invest a lot of money and it's fair enough. You start to get this, ohh so many hours a month, so many hits no so what? What are people learning? How are they growing? What are they evolving to be? How are they sharing in their communities what they're doing? Yeah and I'm really, I've just got to go back to something that you said about the social side of things and trying to develop communities because I have tried that so many times and literally it's never worked. I mean, as you say, there's always a few people who are fabulous and they're always on it and they're doing all the great stuff, but they're the few. On the many and, but then I was talking to someone today and they said they've joined a group on Facebook that's all about woodburners, you know, and picking up tips and sharing tips. But in the workplace, we can't get that same energy, you know, because we're not obviously harnessing interest, passion enough, you know, where are we going wrong? Where is it working? I really want to know because actually getting on your phone and saying, you know, I don't know. A day's thinking about this. Going to try this now as a leader? Wow, that would be phenomenal.
 
 

Guy Bloom    22:52 

And this is the thing I've moved into, which is demonstrate your relationship with the craft.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    22:59 

Yes, yes.
 
 

Guy Bloom    23:01 

And so I've got this great thing about craft, and I go demonstrate your relationship with the craft of leadership. I don't really mind or care how. So if somebody comes in and dependent on my audience, because sometimes I'm working in construction, sometimes I'm working in finance, sometimes I'm working in and they're all different. Some people's relationship with reading and academia is different to being on social media. But if I get a group of people that come in and go, I was on tik tok and there was this clip and he said, you know, this clip says this is a clip of and he showed it to the group and it was a clip of children playing football. And he said and when the children play football, they all follow the ball. And as the ball was being kicked around, it was like a swarm of bees. They all ran at the ball, he says. And then you watch adults play football, they know their role, he says. I think when you go into an organization into, a site or whatever, everybody runs after the problem because they all wanna validate or others go, no. Do I need to be there? Do I trust you that that's your job? If you need me, I'm over here now. So he hasn't read a book and he hasn't listened to a podcast, but he was on social media. He saw that. And because he's got a mindset of curiosity, he's been given a permission. Now to connect that to what we're doing, yeah, he didn't just watch a funny video of some kids running after a football. He saw a lesson in it, brings it in, shares it with the group, and I go bingo. Nailed it. So I've, I've kind of, I don't know if this resonates with you, but more this kind of organic kind of, let's be real, um, creating your own kind of ecosystem around it. That personalized learning to me is more, it's less trackable though.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    24:42 

Yeah, which is still the place we're in when you think about metrics and measurement, but actually. You know, if you look at some of the things that we do look at around engagement and attrition and you know, ability to attract and move talent around. Guess what, if you look at why that's happening, it's because the leader is engaged, curious, self aware, learning themselves, encouraging others to learn, talking about things. You know, I was just talking to a member of my team earlier about she'd read an article about accents and and the difference accents make in terms of recruiting people and people progressing. She said, I'm going to stick this article on and as a team, let's have a, you know, a gathering about it and have a little chat about what we all think. And it's just stuff like that that should be happening as part of our daily lives. That's learning, that's growing, that's learning through discussion, learning of a perspectives. And if we could just work out a way to get more comfortable with that fluidity. But accept that as a reader, have to engage, have to build a talented team and develop them. I have a role. If I'm not doing that, then actually. Are not performing. Because if we looked at it in that holistic way rather than how many hours did Billy do you know last week with learning, because that doesn't say anything either about the leadership role in it. And Billy probably watched it might have been, I mean look, I have this so funny when I think about this. Think about all the compliance learning that you have to do and the amount of people that say, Oh yeah, I heard my sandwich while it was on in the background and that is not sticking. That is not creating traction for us if it's so important.
 
 

Guy Bloom    26:20 

To us. Interacted with it so I could answer the questions at the end, and I guessed most of them, and I sat with my mate and we figured it I'd I'd rather I know people that would rather have three goes at the end. Of guessing the questions. Then actually watch it once and pay attention and learn it, because the horror of listening to it outweighs the pain in the arse of going. Oh, I didn't get them all. I missed it by one. I'll have another go. And they'd rather do that. And I and I and I think that's very fun and I think because I'm exactly like that I am that person. And I think sometimes you gotta look at yourself and go what's the reality of my learning style? And and I've I've actually come to the point where I think it's quite OK to be a little bit awkward because you know, if I'm the if I am the version of the human being that's got to be connected to right yeah.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    27:17 

Then I've got a what would make me pay attention? So having at least one or two people around you that find it, ohh. God I can't be bothered. So what would get you? So I yeah I think there's there's a core requirement to learn and I am that giving permission to and even permission is not the right word. Welcoming, cherishing the individuals relationship with their own learning agenda. But then sharing it and bringing it in, that's exciting. And I just love the fact that you're, you know, you use the word craft because actually. Talking to people about leadership, being a craft and something that you hone over time and that evolves and that you know, hopefully you get better and better at. If you're open, if you're open to learn, if you're curious about your impact, if you care about you know what sort of persona you you generate externally and internally, then that's the thing that can build and grow over time. You know I I go back to my. Education, you know, contrast because I think we need to hold on to some of that stuff that they do in school, you know, and how they learn in school. And the fact there's, there's just this constant conversation there's you're saying about stuff. You know, my son's in secondary school now and they're talking about what's going on, you know what's happening in Ukraine, who's doing what, where, why. Let's talk about it as a group, as a community of the same age. What do you think, what reaction do you have? How do you feel? There's conversations need to be the same, don't they, in business?
 
 

Guy Bloom    28:51 

I think that's fascinating because if you if you talk about the Ukraine, just for example, insert major issue now topic hmm, there's Ukraine, you're gonna talk about culture, you're gonna talk about belonging, you're gonna talk about leadership, you're gonna talk about people taking sides, you're gonna talk about what's fair and what isn't, etcetera, etcetera. It's just a conduit. And you could literally go what does a leader have to pay attention to? Have we been trained and crafted to have conversations that mean our emotions don't? In fact, the quality of the conversation, people go and you can't talk about politics. You can't. No, no. Let's get good at having conversations in this business through what's going on in the world, recognising that we're going to talk about brand and culture and the quality of conversation. And how did that get. And actually that's very organic. How have we got better at having conversations even when they're emotive points? Yeah, yeah. Me and me and Bob and Sue sat down another point last night and we actually purposely talked about quite a contentious topic, you know that. Thing that's just happened in Timbuktu. Yeah, normally would have been all over the place with it, but we had a really high quality. Ah, great. So you've got better at having high quality conversations on emotive topics and how does that then manifest in the workplace? These are the things I think that yeah and I think.
 
 

Guy Bloom    30:09 

Very exciting if you start to think like that.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    30:11 

Some of that's about the sort of. Well, what is back to the culture discussion? You know, what's the culture of that organization? Because if I come into a session to discuss something that might be a bit emotive, emotional or whatever it might be, then can I be me, can I share my perspective, my points of view, and will that be listened to? I might be challenged and I'm OK with that. I might get some feedback on how I'm representing, you know, is it really a dynamic live conversation where we get to the right answer or is it everybody holding their own agenda, you know, not saying things because they don't want to? Upset, someone are upset. You know, there's a lot of that, the unspoken rule that you don't have outside of work. If you went to the pub with a friend and discuss something, we're still, I think at times bringing that whole political agenda into the room and I don't think we do develop people in. Some of the emotional control, the emotional management, you know, the stuff that we were doing when we worked together 13 years ago, you know, being yourself with skill, you know that authenticity. If you look pick up any article again now, I mean I was reading something from Gartner about human centered. Leadership the things haven't changed that matter because people want to work in businesses where leaders have, you know, compassion, care. They can challenge, they're happy to give feedback, they're happy to be vulnerable. They share their many people want to work for people like that and I don't think that's changed in the last 13 years and I think we're a lot better at it in some areas. You know I think a number of things that we've been through arguably the past couple of years are allowing more vulnerability. But I do notice almost a step back to well you know, this is me and this is what I have to say and I'm very professional and I have the answer to all things and ohh are you challenging me or I'm not so comfortable with that and I'm. I won't really answer that challenge and I certainly don't want your feedback. You know, there's definitely still that presence of that which is so debilitating to growth and the things you're talking about because of course we're not done. Of course we're unfinished and imperfect and we have much to learn. And and unless we're comfortable with that, how do we get to the right choices together in the scenarios you're describing? And how do I learn about actually how am I coming across and what could I do differently and what's really working for me? What do you really enjoy about being with me? You know, if those conversations were live, back to learning, back to leadership, guess what? We'd all be better, happier, more engaged it's. Yeah, I think there is probably only, you know, there's lots of good stuff in that programme that we worked on together. Was all about behaviour and mindset and thinking about how you show up and it was a really powerful, impactful thing. But then you sort of have to sustain in bed, continue revisit for it to stay like that, don't you, and introduce the new people to it. And it's the body of work over time. It's not a one hit wonder.
 
 

Guy Bloom    33:14 

You just said something. You said many things there that I totally agree with and I like that. I know it's a body of work, which is sometimes we have an intervention issue, we need to do something. That checked it. But I think a body of work, we've got people that will be in this organization you know, let's just say three years, five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years longer. So that means as human beings, are we going to improve their IQ? Probably not.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    33:39 

Yeah, exactly right are we going to give them experiences that they can learn from? Yeah what's the one thing that we can do? It's helped them mature. Help them become mature. Adults and what does that mean? And actually what it means is I don't really know. I mean, I know projects that have gone wrong and teams that have failed. And when those teams have failed, it is very rarely because of brain power. Well, none of them were smart enough to do it absolutely i.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    34:13 

Don't know if that's ever happened, right? Have long decisions being made? Yes, but that's the stuff of life. But it's always been the success or the failure on a project, or for the lifespan of that. Fame has always come down to their capacity to have grown up conversations in a manner that allowed them to hold multiple truths and still function, to park their agendas, to hold space on their ideas, to offer counsel and calibration and feedback, to receive difficult observations of their own, etcetera, etcetera. It's always been that if you're starting out and you don't know how to give feedback, we'll give you a model yes yeah.
 
 

Guy Bloom    34:54 

When you're young. You don't know the subtleties of communication but when you're senior, I'm not going to use the word old, but when you're senior, you sometimes have the positional power to abstain from having high quality conversations because you're powerful enough to deflect them and not have them. And that's the trick. It's making it that you don't want to abstain because you're good at it and you're comfortable with it. And I think that's what I'm hearing. You know, as we're talking, that's what this is about. It's not knowledge for the sake of it. It's the craft and the maturity. And I think the maturity that moving into that adult space and recognising that every four or five years, just like your wardrobe probably needs updating, you kind of need to look at yourself and go the level I'm operating at with the people I'm operating at. Do these behaviors still fit me?
 
 

Jenni Smyth    35:44 

Yes, exactly. Are they working for me and are they working for the people that I'm leading?
 
 

Guy Bloom    35:50 

That's why I loved what you said. A body of work, right? I think I'm a you're a body of I'm a body of work. Or do you think? No, this is it. I bought all my clothes now, and I'm never gonna update them. Look, these are gonna be in fashion for the next 20 years. Well, good luck exactly i've stopped now. I'm sort of done. And this is this is how I am. And you know, you have heard that. I've heard that. This is me. This is me. This is what I do. I've tried, you know, I've done a bit of work on it. I know it doesn't always work, but yeah, basically, suck it up. I'm here. Get on with it. I just hate to hear. That because, you know, thinking of the growth fixed mindset, such a fixed mindset, so debilitating. And when you think about role modelling and that whole thing we were talking about, about what happens at the top, is what happens everywhere else. If I show up and say, yeah, well this is how I am and I'm not really working on that and I now I do that. So you have to get away around that. How uninspiring, how disengaging. You know, at least to come and say this is me, these are my flaws, these are my strengths. I'd love to be better. Is so I want your feedback. I'm working on it actively. How great is that and how much respect you have for people that show up and do say that I know when I've worked for people who are built that way. It's inspiring. And it also gives you permission to say, oh, I'm not, I'm not great at this. So can you tell me what you think on that one, please? Because I do do that. That's a habit I have. It's permission to speak, it's safety and it's so important for development. We don't expect people to be superheroes. We cannot. That whole Hero management leadership thing, that's gone. It arguably was it ever there? I think it used to be how it was seen as you know, that's good. I've got the answer to all things and I can solve this problem for you. That's not, that's rubbish, isn't it? No one can solve all problems. We need to work together.
 
 

Guy Bloom    37:41 

I should have primed you for this, but just anything I should read or pay attention to, the one book I think you should read or the one podcast you should listen to get anything like that the sort of jumps out for you.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    37:53 

I really enjoy reading. And it's more article based. I think there's a guy called Nick Van Dam who is a lecturer at IE University and worked for McKinsey. He writes some great articles and you know, talks about leadership and its impact on culture and what matters within the whole learning and development context. And I just think a lot of his insights are phenomenal. You know, we've talked, we've talked a bit today about some of the things he talks about in terms of what leaders say and do, the actions they take. And the massive impact it continues to have, you know, and he's a really well researched, you know, globally travelled person still saying these same things about connection and leadership and being all the things we've talked about today. So I'd I'd urge people you know to to look him up because I think that's fab. And there was something else I was going to, I was going to say that's gone out of my head. Yeah, you have put me on the spot there and I wish I'd thought about that because there will be, um, outside of sort of. I read a lot of stuff from Harvard Business Review. I guess I gravitate Harvard Business Review, McKinsey, Nick Van Damme. I mean, I actually read the Carol Dweck book on mindset and I think that's a good one. You know, when you think about some of the things we're talking about here, that really resonated with me. I think that there was actually I was on um. Webinar yesterday and the guy that was leading it talked about the Marshall Goldsmith book. You know, what got you here won't get you there. You know his original work, I know he's done loads of stuff since then, but he was kind of just saying nothing's changed from that from what he was saying in that was what we were saying about building a new wardrobe, thinking about stuff differently. What do I need to change up to get a different outcome? So I read that. I read that early doors ages ago, and I think that's still a great one. Yeah, I mean there are things that spring to my mind. I mean podcast wise. I'm more, I'm more D the the comedy podcast to cheer me up on the train. Then I do those.
 
 

Guy Bloom    40:06 

Comedy podcasts are very often making social commentary.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    40:09 

Yeah, I love.
 
 

Guy Bloom    40:10 

There's elements of the hilarious, but there's also, Umm, recognizing yeah, that that sounds funny and I'm laughing at it. But that actually is probably more than one reason I'm laughing at it is because unfortunately he's been, well, true, especially with comedy. I think comedians, good ones, good ones are social commentary experts. So listen. I'm going to bring this to a close. You've been an absolute joy.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    40:32 

Thank you. Loved it. It's just great to have this sort of conversation because you know, you probably don't often enough with other sort of like minded people get stuck into something and go, Oh yeah, why is that? What is that? Why does that happen? I've it's been brilliant. I've really enjoyed it thanks well,
 
 

Guy Bloom    40:50 

I think we might be doing it again. So I'm going to press the stop button stay on just to make sure everything connects and loads up. But on that note, thank you so much yeah thank you.
 
 

Jenni Smyth    40:59 

That's it. So I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please share so others get to hear about us and subscribe so you keep up to date on new episodes. Also visit living brave com if you want to connect with me and find out more about executive coaching, team effectiveness and changing culture. And of course, you can buy my book living Brave leadership on Amazon. So on that note, see you soon.