Dawn Airey, CEO

On this episode of Leadershp Bites we have Dawn Airey. Dawn is a powerhouse of street smarts, commercial acumen and drive.

I have seen her operate in a number of different spaces, she is a tour de force, she is also compassionate and higly dialled in to the context and the moment.

We spoke about:

✅ Senior Teams
✅ Culture
✅ Get messages out
✅ Operating under stress
✅ Managing under performance

Listen on Itunes, Spotify and all platforms, also listen direct from your laptop/PC on the livingbrave.com website.

Dawn joined Central Independent Television in 1985 as a management trainee. In 1989 she became Director of Programme Planning at Central and was appointed to the Central broadcasting board. In 1993, she moved to London to become the first Controller of Children's and Daytime Programmes.

In 1994, she became Controller of Arts and Entertainment at Channel 4.

It was reported in The Sunday Times that her forthright manner had earned her the soubriquet "Scary Airey" and "Zulu Dawn".

Airey joined Channel 5 in 1996, as its first director of programmes. It was during her tenure that she agreed with an interviewer that some might think the channel's core strengths were "films, football and fucking" but added it was about a lot more. She was subsequently appointed as chief executive of the channel in 2000.

In 2002, she joined, BSkyB. There she was responsible for running all Sky channels, except Sky Sports, and she was in charge of programming and advertising sales. In 2006, she became managing director of Channels and Services whereupon she gained additional responsibility for all third party channels, joint ventures and networked media.

In May 2008, after eight months at ITV plc, Airey earned Grade's enmity when she resigned to rejoin Channel 5 as chairman and CEO, with a remit to increase profitability and audience share. This she did. She left RTL in April 2013.

In August 2013, she joined Yahoo! as senior vice-president of Yahoo EMEA (Europe, the Middle East and Africa). She was in the post until September 2015.

Airey was chief executive officer (CEO) of Getty Images photo agency from October 2015 to 31 December 2018, at which time she became a non-executive director member of its board.

In 2019, The Football Association appointed Airey as chair of the new joint Barclays FA Women's Super League and Championship board.

In 2021, she also served as a member of the Government's Expert Panel for a Fan-Led Review of Football Governance.

Airey chairs the joint Barclays FA Women's Super League and Championship board (2019-) and the boards of the National Youth Theatre (2011-) and the educational platform Digital Theatre+ (2019-).

To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.

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Transcript

Guy Bloom    00:00 

Welcome to leadership bites with myself, your host, guy bloom. This is a leadership podcast where I have conversations with colleagues, I chat with guests, and sometimes they'll be just me talking. You can connect with me at livingbrave.com and when you enjoy the episode, subscribe and please tell everyone. It's video as well, so. Anyway, he here we go. Actual recording is higher quality and there we go. So listen dawn, it is lovely to have you on this episode of Leadership Bytes welcome thank you.
 
 

Dawn Airey    00:34 

It's great to be here.
 
 

Guy Bloom    00:35 

And you know, you and I have known each other for some time. So it goes without saying that I know who you are, but it would be just great just to get that if you were at a barbecue and somebody said Ohh, what do you do, you know, just to introduce yourself to the audience.
 
 

Dawn Airey    00:50 

Of course. So I'm Dawn Airey. And what I do now, well, what I do now is I'm plural. So I chair three companies, sit on three other boards, have two young children, and I'm interested in culture and curious in. You think of everything, but particularly human beings. So that's how I introduce myself a barbecue. But if I'm being jovial, I'll go. My name's Dawn Airey and I'm an alcoholic. Oops, sorry, wrong barbecue.
 
 

Guy Bloom    01:13 

But we've all been there, so and it covers up the fact you might be. So there we go. I'm not. So let's just bring that to life a little bit. That, and this isn't your CV, but this is just to give people a sense of when they're hearing the topic because we're going to talk about leadership and culture and teams. And for people just to have a sense of, you know, what's that individual's context and and where's it coming from, just give, just bring to life that those stepping stones to where you are now.
 
 

Dawn Airey    01:45 

Sure um, well, I. From a pretty early age that I wanted to tell stories or facilitate to storytelling, so it was inevitable I was going to end up in print or then television. And this was in the eighties. I went into telly and being a woman in television in the eighties, which was pretty much dominated. And forgive me because you're a male guy, but by cromagnon man, it was an interesting period of time. But because I was a woman, I was actually rather good at what I did and I started off as a a sort of producer and then quickly got into television commissioning, deciding what went out. I sort of whisked away, whisked my way round British commercial broadcasting so started as a trainee, ran arts and entertainment at Channel Four, was managing director of channels and Services at Sky, which was basically all programming apart from sport founded and created. Channel 5 is its creative director and ultimately was the chief executive. And then from there I actually spent a bit of time on the West Coast working for one of the tech giants, Yahoo. And then my last full time executive role was chief executive of the photographic agency Getty Images and and now I said I chair two theatre companies, professional game of women's football, sit on a tech company, sit on the board. Of a um. A property, a property company and is on the board of Channel 4. So I've got a very interesting group of companies and individuals I'm involved in.
 
 

Guy Bloom    03:29 

And and I think that's one of the things I, I, I kind of. And of course we talk about these things in a nutshell and each one is its own topic of conversation. But one of the things I've always admired about you is that curiosity and that inherent passion that you have. And I know of course, you know, the job is the job, but I've always seen you bring that sort of. Inherent energy and and and yeah deep care for people into the space that you operate in. So I I'd really like to just talk about teams I guess because teams and culture. And I don't necessarily want to say what do you think a great team is and what do you think a great culture is? Because at some respects you know, that's, that's, that's, that's maybe a little bit too easy just to go in at what aspiration looks like you know? But I think what I'm more interested in is when people come together when you go into an organisation. You're presented, you know, there is the statement, you get the team that you, um, that you deserve, but when you turn up on day one, you've got the team that you've got, right? But there comes a point where it's the team that you deserve because you've either managed them exactly, coached them, mentored and counselled them, exited or whatever it is. So there just comes a point of ownership, I guess. So I'm, I'm really intrigued by the stepping stones of walking into an organization. Where you've got to demonstrate that you can hit the floor running, you've got to put some scores on the doors, all those kind of things. You've got to, you're reliant to a point on the people that you have already in the organization and yet you have to craft A-Team to be able to operate in a place in a space that you would want it to. And I'm just interested in that insert name of company here when you when you go in, you know? How do you how do you do those stepping stones?
 
 

Dawn Airey    05:25 

Well, yeah, really, really interesting question. And I have to say how I've done that has evolved. So I went into leadership positions really very, very quickly. So in my late twenties, I had roles that sort of when I looked around the network, people 20 years older were just getting. And so I've got a lot of experience and I've made a lot of mistakes, but I've also learned from those mistakes. So it's interesting. When I started out, I was. When I was being promoted and said right, I want you to go and run this team. Certainly in my early stages of my career I would almost have made my decisions before I'd formed any relationships with anybody and would clear out most people and start again because I've been brought in to effect change and actually I've learnt as I've got more experience that that isn't that isn't the right approach. Sometimes you do have to move fast and you can know quite quickly and I would argue actually in the latter. Half of my career, every leadership team that I've inherited, you tend to know pretty quickly who, who, who's on who, who, who wants to be with you on this journey, who do you want to be with you on this journey? Who has potential but but needs to be showing up in a different way, so. I remember I'd go but gonna go back, right back to television. So and it was when I started it actually at Channel 4 when I was controller of Arts and Entertainment, so responsible for everything apart from factual news account affairs. And I had a everything from movies to sport to acquisitions to arts to entertainment. And I'm not going to name names because that will be inappropriate. But one of the commissioning editors came up to me and said. I don't like you and I don't rate you. And I said, well, that's very interesting because I don't know you, but I've heard an awful lot about you and what I've heard is not very complimentary. So this is, this is how it's going to work. You're right. Real pain in the arse. So if the gain of ohh sorry if the pain of working with you isn't outweighed by the gain I will have you out of this the door straight away. I will fire you. And so we'll be very very I'll be very very clear very very clear. And also I expect you to be more collaborative and slightly more pleasant to your to your colleagues. And this person was absolutely astounded. Said nobody's ever spoke to me about that. And I said well, one thing I learnt very early on from a wonderful. Mental my first boss, Andy Allen, was feedbacks a gift. So I'm giving you some feedback now and you've got to decide. And don't think, don't think I'm mucking around. And actually he proved to be a really good team member and expectations hadn't been laid. So what I what I've done in, I would say my last three CEO roles when I've gone in inherited a team is listen to everybody. And you know I do think it's when you go in in a new rail people expect you to have all of the answers. And you have clearly a view in an idea about how the business should be run, the strategy, the direction. But there's nothing like observing, listening and then a pining. And I always say you've got two of these, two of these and one of these. Use them in equal proportion early on. And that could be very disarming for people because they expect it all your new leader, you've got all the answers. Now, leaders don't have all the answers. They have a sense of direction. They have a sense of what the opportunity is. They'll have a sense of what's not working, but you need to validate it. And you need and you need to and you need to listen. And so I think I said about my recent. Executive roles and both companies needed a fair amount of change in attitude at the top. So what I did in both cases was engaged my leadership team in sort of really trying to understand them as individuals, their motivations and then talking to them about the strategy of the business, what's going well, what isn't going well, and then extend that into the whole organization. So I always believe in doing this sort of whole. Organisational audit, you know, have you got regular feedback from from staff to understand what is going on? Because staff always know. There's no two ways about your coworkers always know what's working well, what isn't working well, who are the team players, who are the outliers, you know, who needs to be got rid of, who's taking the piss, who's a superstar but hasn't been given the opportunity. So I just level with people really very early on, which is I'm going to form judgments, but it's a it's a level playing field. So let's, let's all engage. And actually there is no superstar in this. The only everybody needs to be a giant and everybody is a giant. Works well, you're gonna get giant outcomes. So I think you need to be. I've always tried to be really clear on strategy by engaging both with the organization and with the leadership team. Okay, what is the strategy? And then iterating and constantly communicating, having very clear KPIs. This is what you need to do. This is how you fit into the organization, this is how you're going to be judged. And by the way, you're a grown up. I'm going to let you get on and do what you need to do and I don't need to know everything all the time and not control free. However, I will deep dive when I need to. And just go off and do what? Do what you do and when you need one. When you need councillor. Want to debate something? Bring it back to the senior leadership table. Bring it back to me. We can debate stuff. If you make mistakes, that's fine. Human beings make mistakes. You're going to be monstered for it. Learn from the mistakes. Try not to make too many, please. And by the way, I've got going to just let you. Run your your business section sector and and and I expect you to do really well and I expect to pay you really well. I want you to be successful and I'm gonna take an active interest in your success and then the other thing and you will hear this from everybody I'm sure that you have on your podcast guy. I actively try to employ brilliant people and I am not in any way. Anxious or undermined by employing people who are far smarter than me because I think I get the benefit of that. So I always think as a leader, you're a bit of a conductor. You know you, you you need to know what the the sound you want from this orchestra. But you don't and can't necessarily play any single one of those instruments to the high quality that your musicians can. But you're there bringing them together to get the best out of them. And you do that because they know what their role is and. And then, you know, I I've always found leadership quite simple, but I've always tried to be, and I could be quite disarming because I am interested in human beings. So I remember simple things. And these things always make a difference. Today you'll remember. People's partners names. You'll remember birthdays. You remember the names of the kids. You remember where they went on you. You're interested and engaged. With your leadership team and indeed as broad as broader church as you can in the organisation, those things matter. It really does matter. There might seem soft but they're not. They deliver really great business outcomes if you've got the right people, cause you feel as if actually I'm important. I understand the role that I play in this organization, I know I'm recognised, I know I have a voice, which again, I believe in massive over communication and expect. All of my direct reports and leadership to to equally communicate with their Co workers. So they've got you know how can you ask somebody to take responsibility and an active interest to be an active contributor in account if you don't know what's going on. So I also believe in being really transparent and politics I always think comes out of in businesses of I know some of that you don't know it could be to my advantage don't believe in any of that at all. Everybody can know everything problem obviously the most personal things are added individuals and the most financially. Sensitive information. But otherwise everyone should know, we should celebrate success. We should understand failure. We should be actively curious about competitors. So it's all sort of, it's all for me and always has been intuitive. Always been intuitive around leadership which is ultimately treat others how you expect to be treated and how would it be treated. You know with respect I want to be paid well. I want to be invested in as an individual. They're trained and. And you know it's it really is quite simple if you've got, if you've got the right folks in and if you haven't and you clearly in any leadership there's always going to be. Outliers and trying to understand why they're an outlier. And actually if they're in, they're just demonstrating bad behaviours because they've never been told otherwise. Help them and if they can't change them, people can change, but if they can't change then they have to be exited because if you don't do it, somebody else will down the line. So I often think, I mean, I try to, and this is an interesting knack of when I've had to let go of people. Make them feel that actually was a good experience because you're invested in me and I'm not right in this organisation and I can see that and to thrive I need to change my behaviours or go somewhere else to suit my skills. So that's a very long answer, bit of a ramble but. Somethings you can pick up from there.
 
 

Guy Bloom    14:53 

We can talk everybody to to listen to that section. Let me, let me define, you know what it is to step into a role at that level. I I have heard a lot there about clarity, giving people that clarity. So there's a there's a certainty and then an accountability. If you have that clarity at the level you're operating, then I need you to then own that and have that accountability. It's almost if you want to, if you're at the big table. That's a set of expectations I've I've got. But with that, I'm going to trust because if you're operating at the level you should be and I need you to be then. It's not so much off you go, but it's going to do what you do and then what I'm and I'm and I'm here to either clear the path for you or to act as counsel or etcetera. So that's a beautiful thing. And I can imagine and I have seen how that can bring out the best in people because they go, wow, this is if I'm actually being allowed to do my flipping job and it can set people free. There are then people that. Either through. Um, just lack of self-awareness Don't know the game that they're sometimes even playing. They've habitually lized to a politic. And so they actually think they're playing a straight game, but what they're actually doing is playing the game that they're used to, which isn't necessarily what actually good looks like. So I do come across people that of course there are those that maybe have bad intentions and in some respects they highlight themselves relatively quickly because they make overt statements and strategic decisions that really highlight what they're really about, so that those usually show themselves quite quickly. But it's the people. But I think at a senior level, maybe the roles outgrown them or the habits that they've got, they're not bad people, but they've just, as you say, nobody's given them that feedback. And I wonder. Maybe it's an advice thing, maybe it's an observation where you've nailed it, or you go mental. Note to self, I should have done that differently. But the timeline on somebody that's good and nice and pleasant and engaging and he's trying and he's desperate to contribute. I always think he's a very hard thing for a leader that has a level of empathy versus somebody that's just being an outright bugger. That's just, that's just much easier, isn't it? Right, you're being a git, right? That's, you know, I know where I am with you. But from the person that maybe was good has moments of flashes of ohh my god, if you were like that all the time, almost what I call a skimmer, somebody that just does enough to stay on the surface, but you just knowing that they're not really operating at that level. I just wonder how that pans out with you.
 
 

Dawn Airey    17:45 

When it's really hard, isn't it? Because I think, again, you have to be. As a leader you have to be very strict with yourself as well and look at your motivation. It's human nature to want to put people around you that that are that you know that you like and and are often similar to yourself. But we know that doesn't make great teams because you need diversity of thought and background and interest and a whole host of things. That doesn't equate to a lack of common, I would say courtesy, and I've employed plenty of people who, to be frank, I hugely respect. But I don't want to spend a time having a drink with them at the end, at the end, at the end of the day. But business wise and do do a fantastic job and they don't do anything that is in anything but the interests of the team. But maybe like I said not somebody you would necessarily go for a drink or and actually I have. I've had some great relationships with a couple of folks who travelled with me on various companies who are relationship falls and it's a wonderful professional relationship but it doesn't, it doesn't span in, doesn't span. Doesn't span into personal. Quite interesting actually. My father, he was an architect and engineer in his practice and his partner he he was with for 40 years professional they they absolutely and utterly were. They were hand in glove and delivery, built a very successful business but they didn't mix personally but they did professionally sort of, sort of interesting and it worked but I suppose the. The issue is if you've got somebody and we all have it in tears from time to time, who you know? Is actually the reverse of what you say you actually it's a bit edgy and they're a bit out for themselves, but they're really bloody good at what they do. And do you poop them out or do you do you sort of put very tight boundaries around them with a watch full eye on them because of what they deliver is so important? And I think it's a very delicate balance because if that person is displaying. Behaviours that really aren't consistent with the behaviours of a leadership team and the company than they have to go. But there are plenty of who that I've seen who just just I would say ice skate on very thin very thin ice and you just have to have a watching brief. But the the folks who are who are. Who are good, who are very amiable but actually aren't pulling their weight to the extent they should. That that is difficult, but. You do actually have to do something about it cause it's not fair on those below in the organisation. So the smart, you know every organisation is a, you know, an ecosystem people if they can't see a line to progress and they'll leave you. And we all know millennials and centennials are going to have eight jobs and they'll move around and then you know won't have their loyalty to companies is relatively deminimus. But you know you do want some loyalty and you do want to offer a career path so you can attract the best talent and actually if you were if you're allowing just a little bit. Of softness. It's it's identified really, really acutely. And you know, as you know, people are really smart, really intelligent. And the fascinating thing about organisations is everybody observes everybody, everybody truly knows what is going on and who's in and who's out and who's not pulling the way and who is. And if you as the leader on top of that and aren't ensuring that actually there's a consistent set of behaviours and achievement level that's required to be able to hold on to your job, let alone to be promoted. If you're not on top of that, then you're gonna lose credibility too. It it's yeah, but it it's it's it's like everything. It's gotta be constantly calibrated and it's about fairness as well. Back to that point I said earlier, it's about being fair and transparent. So you can't, you can't let people hang around in an organisation. If they're good. If they're just good enough.
 
 

Dawn Airey    21:48 

That's a thing I've really come to observe, which is it's no very rarely to somebody not have a line of sight on what their concept of good is, you know, this is how I want the company to look like. This is the culture, this is the environment, etcetera. And the problem comes when people sense, because I think you're right. I've heard you say it a few times, people know and it doesn't matter what they're telling you. There's a word on the street. There's a narrative around the environment and the and the individuals. So when at a senior level, people are. Given leeway that breaks the narrative about what the culture is. That's where I think I see the first domino fall in terms of a person's credibility being lost. You know, you say a but I can point it b and c and d where that's not true because they bring in the money or because they blah blah blah blah. And so the moment you get that live in an organization, I think that's when a senior kind of teams or individuals. The credibility starts to drop rapidly.
 
 

Dawn Airey    22:57 

Yeah, but equally again, back to organizations. I've learned there are often protected species in an organisation.
 
 

Dawn Airey    23:04 

And right.
 
 

Dawn Airey    23:06 

CEO's favourites who are just so not displaying the behaviours of the company and are just so not delivered. But they've gone away through those personal relationships or whatever yeah with actually not. They're just haven't shown up. And then if you get rid of one or two of those quickly, my goodness gracious, that sends a ripple through the organisation. And I've done that in my last three roles. You know, as I said earlier, I take time, but I don't take too much time when someone is such an obvious outlier and it's just, you know, and having those conversations with somebody saying actually, you know, it's the end of. Your career here and especially for some individuals who've been around organisations for decades, that they got away with it and then it becomes as institutionalised or is the outlier there never turns up you know, and doesn't display behaviours might turn up put you know for a lunch or but really that their it's just not fair on the organisation. It's wholly inappropriate for that individual. But there are in most there are in, I don't know say most organisations, certainly in the ones I've been CEO of lost three occasions. Those individuals who you very quickly move on, you move on those straight away because that's important for the organisation. Actually there is a new leader in town, yes they are say you know, they are demonstrating the behaviours they are asking from us and there's no messing. I mean you can stamp your authority on an organization pretty God damn quickly by doing a few of those things yeah so and and for me one of the, again the I'm just thinking about things. I've I constantly get coming up as a theme and one of them is what we've been talking about is how do I come into an organisation? How do I create a authority, yes, but control and set a standard. How do I deal with people maybe that are sort of gone into that lazy space or whatever it is, but I'm also really intrigued by the ability of a CEO or somebody in a senior leadership role. To keep. Their finger on the pulse about what's really being said.
 
 

Guy Bloom    25:17 

You know, there is the old adage of the queen thinks the world smells of paint because there's somebody 3 Walker used to, but there's three. They're three feet in front of her or them. The king thinks the world smells of change. I have to change that metaphor, but I get it. Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, they're being presented with a kind of a false truth in the world. And when you go into an organisation, you know, am I really hearing the truth all the way to I've now been here a while, am I now still hearing the truth? And I wonder how you know, you kind of approach that knowing that you're not just being offered. I suppose the stuff that makes it treat treacle on the on the spoon kind of for you.
 
 

Dawn Airey    25:59 

Well, I think it's absolutely. They didn't. It's absolutely and utterly it's, you know, it's as important as meeting the investors, as meeting your meeting your coworkers so and I'm only speaking from how I do it, which is um. I try every day. To walk around, even if it's just for half an hour, just walk around and chat to people. I mean, listen, when we last met at Getty, I did that all the time and I did work slightly batshit crazy hours so early in the morning, late at night, always went into the post room. You knew who knew what was going on where. And if you're curious around individual individuals love nothing more than to talk about themselves or whatever. He is very easy, very easy to pick up. I think it's about it's always about communication. It's always about being consistent. It's always about being open. And and it's also about people will talk to you as well and confide in you if you confide in them. So I remember when I first rocked up at Getty and said I left some money. You probably think, what the hell, we've got somebody who has no experience in photography at all. What on earth are you doing as our CA So I sort of took them through my television career, my career. At Yahoo. And then told them lots of stories about things that I've got right, things that I've got wrong. And I told them about my family. I told them about what I liked on telly. And I tell them I liked to eat and and and this is me, warts and all, you know? And if you make yourself. Accessible and want and not even vulnerable. But you share you just say I might be you see her but I don't have all the answers and I made loads of mistakes and I'm human and I'm really interested human beings and and then you wander around and you and you also know who are key people in terms of sort of cultural who are cultural magnifiers within organisations goes a hell of a long way. A hell of a long way. But you have to work at it and you have to. I mean I consciously. I've always made time to walk around and everyday, even now in the organisations where I'm not an executive but I'm not, I'm a non executive, I'll always talk to who's on front desk. I'll always, you know, I'll talk to everybody at every level because they'll give me good insight and a good sense and feel for, you know, the company and its culture. And also it's good for them to have the engagement of a, of a, of a a senior person. Because, you know, it's that old adage and I hate to use truism, but people work for people. And if we feel valued and the boss knows you, um, you know it, it makes a massive difference. It makes a massive difference, but you have to have to work hard at it. And also, I think, got a formalised communication. And again, that's what I've always I've had all hands on a weekly basis. I've always had anybody can contact me anytime. I've always had you've got my, you got my email, you've got my phone number, and people say that's mad. You got thousands of people working, but yeah, but thousands of people work, contact me. But they know they can if they need to and want to. And that is really, really important. So when somebody does, probably going to be of substance, um, and you respond quickly. And that's just another discipline I've always had. It drives me crazy if others don't do it, which is I always respond to unless there's some reason there's some extraordinary reason. And if there is, you'll be known. I will respond to everything within 24 hours, if not sooner. You can't always do it immediately. But you, you know, if you want to communicate, you're going to get an answer. I mean, and my straight drives my assistant, Matt. Because you don't know this person and they rent you, and this is me now and are not exactly what I said. Yes, but they've had the wherewithal to work out our email address and there's an interesting we're going to deal with it. But that's just how I run my professional life and it sort of served and worked and served and worked well but. Umm, having your finger on the pulse of an organisation, I would argue as the leader of the organisation is absolutely critical. I mean it's it's as critical as hitting your numbers is understanding the pulse of the organization, and you can only do that by making the time to invest in the folks who are working with you.
 
 

Guy Bloom    30:20 

And I love this, I call it doing the long walk, which is if you're on the same level and you're going to go to somebody else's office drop down into the drop down a couple of levels. Walk through reception and come on the back stairs. Doesn't matter how you do it, but do the long walk. So people physically see you in the organization, they have a sense of you, they et cetera and did work with an organization once and the feedback was in the same building. They're just not present. Well, how come we're in everyday? Well of course. And when I did a diagnostic and went down to the canteen and showed them the pictures, certain pictures, do you know who these people are? No the canteen staff didn't know why? Because they didn't eat in the canteen either. And all these kind of. Little things, yeah. But you're right. It's an easy, it's an easy thing to say at interview to get the job. How would Pete, how would you get your finger on the pulse? Ohh, I'd make sure everybody comes out with the same adage. But what are you doing a year later when you're busy, you're up to your eyeballs in it. What's the stuff? And if it drops off the table, then that's an indicator isn't it, that it's not actually something real for you.
 
 

Dawn Airey    31:23 

Go and chat to people. I mean, remember at Channel 5 when we when we launched Channel 5, we did. It wasn't just not doing leadership, it's just about human beings. Collating around a focal but we had a tea trolley twice a day, mid morning, mid afternoon. That was a people love the tea trolley. You know, free kick and a cup of coffee or a cup of tea now seemed quite revolutionary, revolutionary in these sort of in the nineties. But it was just a chance for everyone to stop, pause, come together socially, go back, go back to their desks. But yeah, to your point about visibility, I know when I started at Getty, the CEO said, you know, if you ever went to my office in New York, it was wonderful, fast, really lovely. Come I never had it. I mean, it's almost the size of a football pitch. And I thought, well, I should be sitting out with everybody else who I had a desk outside with everyone else. But B, it had frosted glass all the way down it. So every year, so that my first thing first, I didn't get rid of that fostered gas. It's got to be transparent. People can see. I'm in my office door is open. If it's closed they can see why because I've got somebody in them having a conversation with that and justice in terms of a symbolic but a really important symbolism first thing where my God, she's taking down all the frosting. You can look in and see what she's doing in her office called Everyday. So just simple little things, but really important.
 
 

Dawn Airey    32:41 

Culturally, well, American officers were the first time I realised folk, these people have got front rooms in their offices. The beating to office thank for not just yours, but in the US where it's like this is actually a somebody's front room. There's there's sofas.
 
 

Dawn Airey    32:55 

And carpets and family of five living in my.
 
 

Dawn Airey    32:57 

It it's fantastic I was like we're miss we're missing out we're missing out in the UK don't completely different but I do remember that so I I think that's that's a massive thing isn't it that sense that people can connect. I remember Alan Leighton. I'm about to go to a talk with him and he just said, you know he had a when he was at the post office and he just I've got this beeper and and anybody can call it and he says I and I know what you're thinking it must go off a lot. It says it doesn't, but when it does.
 
 

Guy Bloom    33:28 

The reason?
 
 

Dawn Airey    33:29 

Why yes I pay attention to it cause just sending me bizarre text messages doesn't doesn't go well you know but he just he had that sense of being available, being able to be contacted right you know regardless of the individual. So I think that I think keeping that going is yes I think a lot of people go we'll see how long this lasts and actually if it's still going strong it's an indicator and I think also it's a good call to answer your own people isn't your team, your peers, your, your direct. Reports were that executive for them how connected are they? And for some people, that's quite difficult to step out of their habit of being quite I'm very busy. I'm very busy. I don't know if I've got time for this incomes this news. I want you to spend time being present and being available. That's a hard, it's a simple request. But for some people who are go, go, go, go, go, they find it very hard yeah i mean, yeah, we, I mean, again, I'm not going to name companies. But one company was it? I thought we were. I brought in a whole host of new people at the top. We were diverse because before it wasn't diverse and we had a big emphasis on communication and staff said. And actually they would have never have done this under the previous previous leadership. Said well, you lot think you're so good, but actually you're not. We're going to put mirror up to you. You're not reflecting either the folks that you employ or our customers. So you know, what are you going to do about it? And this is sort of a bit of a revolution and there and the instant response of someone's well we need to be defensive. That's ridiculous. Look there is lots of diversity at the top said well, we might think so, but our staff don't think so. And actually we need to sit down and let's look at how Christ there isn't really. And then we had to be accountable to the staff said you're right and this is what we are going to do about it, but we need your help too and that was a really great moment for the organization Again, very visible demonstration we're listening and we respond to challenge that. You said we're not going to be defensive and the organisation previously wouldn't have done that. It didn't wouldn't feel sufficiently confident to do that. But back to all of us and my emphasis on you have to communicate. With your team's continually, you can't say the same thing often enough to be honest, and that resulted in a better outcome and actually in a better performance of the company as a result.
 
 

Guy Bloom    35:55 

So what I am hearing of that, and I've always seen this with this, this comms, which is data going out, but you're talking about no human interaction. Show yourself given level of vulnerability. It's okay, it doesn't mean that you have to sort of throw yourself on your sword and you know. My mum locked me in a cupboard when I was three. You know, you don't have to go down there, but there is something about letting people see the human being behind the human doing and that doesn't mean they're going to again, like your love. You even sort of have a sense of comfort with you because we can't all like anybody. But you're really talking about let people know that you are human and you're in a big job and you're trying your best and you are approachable. So it sounds so simple but it's actually one of the hardest things. They're fine for senior people to do, which is just to make time because guess what, you know, the busy running large organizations So listen, I'm alert to time. And I guess before I kind of let you go, I would like to just get one. It could be a quote that you've got or a book that you think, you know what I think, you know, that made a big difference to me or a just a little story of just, you know, something that somebody said to you. Let you go. You know what? That made a big difference to me. So give. Gift of a gift. A gift to the world.
 
 

Dawn Airey    37:24 

I know about a gift to the world, but it's a little anecdote but then but from somebody I adored. So my birth first boss was the most wonderful man, late Andy Allen, and he was managing director at Central Television. Big Geordie, very working class. And he saw something in me and gave me the most extraordinary opportunities to start my career and I TV. And he he he had all sorts of pearls of wisdom, but he couldn't quite. Believe the role that he had and where he'd come from and he always, and he always said to me, you know. Be humble. Employ the best possible people and find something you love and justice, keep doing it and then you'll be great. And then just really and it's sort of mum sounds like a sort of motherhood and apple pie, but those are pretty good, pretty good, pretty good bases on which to go through life, let alone I think you know, lead an organization be humble, employ good people and have fun. So you know. Serve me well. Hopefully, maybe it resonates with your listeners.
 
 

Guy Bloom    38:41 

I think I might put it on a T-shirt It would be fantastic. So listen, Dawn, thank you so much for giving us and myself in particular that time. It's it's just lovely to have you on and just just to talk. And I always get a joy from it. I'm gonna get you down for a few moments just to make sure that everything loads up. But just other than that, from me and everybody else, thank you so much for making the time. And we'll know that speaking connect again.
 
 

Dawn Airey    39:10 

Thank you. A pleasure. A real pleasure. Thank you very much, guy.
 
 

Guy Bloom    39:13 

That's it. So I hope you enjoyed. The episode please share so others get to hear about us and subscribe so you keep up to date on new episodes. Also, visit living brave com if you want to connect with me and find out more about executive coaching, team effectiveness and changing culture. And of course, you can buy my book living Brave leadership on Amazon. So on that note, see you soon.