John Spencer, Connected Soldier

John Spencer is an award-winning scholar, professor, author, combat veteran, and internationally recognised expert and advisor on urban warfare and other military related topics. Considered one of the world’s leading expert on urban warfare, he served as an advisor to four-star generals and other senior leaders in the U.S. Army as part of strategic research groups from the Pentagon to the United States Military Academy.

We talk about:

• Leadership
• Culture
• Social Cohesion
• Community
• Tribe
• Team Dynamic
• Group Identity
• Shared Adversity
• Living up to history
• Creating the narrative
• Proximity leadership
• Artifacts
• Pride

Spencer currently serves as the Chair of Urban Warfare Studies with the Madison Policy Forum. He recently served as the Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, Co-Director of the Urban Warfare Project, and host of the Urban Warfare Project podcast. He also served as a Colonel in the California State Guard with assignment to the 40th Infantry Division, California Army National Guard as the Director of Urban Warfare Training.

Serving over twenty-five years in the active Army as an infantry soldier, Spencer has held ranks from Private to Sergeant First Class and Second Lieutenant to Major. His assignments as an Army officer included two combat deployments to Iraq as both an Infantry Platoon Leader and Company Commander, a Ranger Instructor with the Army’s Ranger School, a Joint Chief of Staff and Army Staff intern, fellow with the Chief of Staff of the Army’s Strategic Studies Group, and Co-Founder, Strategic Planner, and Deputy Director of the Modern War Institute at West Point.

To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.

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Transcript

Guy Bloom    00:00 

Welcome to leadership bites with myself, your host, guy bloom. This is a leadership podcast where I have conversations with colleagues, I chat with guests, and sometimes they'll be just me talking. You can connect with me at livingbrave.com and when you enjoy the episode, subscribe and please tell everyone. I know. I don't know what the benefit of the countdown is like. If you weren't ready, please get ready because it's about to go live. So it is it. Is that so? Listen, John, great to have you on this episode of Leadership Bytes. Welcome to the podcast.
 
 

John Spencer    00:36 

Well, thanks. Thanks guys. I'm a huge fan and and honoured to be on.
 
 

John Spencer    00:40 

Well, it's really good to have you here and I start all of these things off the same way, which is I know who you are. The the audience may not be just great to hear from you, who you are and where you put your energy and your focus sure so I'm John Spencer. I'm the chair of Urban Warfare studies at the modern War Institute, which is a research center at the United States Military Academy. For the US Army, all that means is I have a dream job. I get to travel around the world and study war, you know, usually war in cities okay so there's so much in that, but it's one of those sort of sort of statements that almost leads me into a, into a movie, you know, what's your job title, will, I'm, you know, so bring that to life a little bit and just, you know what, what is a, what is your day made-up of, you know, and that's that's a relatively glib statement, but just, you know, somebody says, what's your job and you're a chef, you go, it's not so much that I cook stuff, but if you really want to know what I do, so. Give me a sense of that and bring it, bring it to life sure so I I research as in study. Yeah, past urban battles, some everything from Stalingrad to Mogadishu and Black Hawk Down things that people know about. Some battles that people may not know so much about, like the Battle of Cortona, where the Canadians fought the Germans in 1943 But I also travelled the world and walked the ground. So I I just got back from Ukraine studying the Battle of Kiev because it was, it will be known, as one of the greatest urban battles of modern history. But I was in Nagorno Karabakh, which most people can't say. Alone, nowhere. It is in between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Last year, studying the the war there I was in Mumbai the year before. Just travel in the world. And then, you know, I go to these places. I write research reports, I write articles, I do podcasts, trying to build up a body of knowledge and. I'm interestingly, there's not many people in the world that's ever just studied that one element of war. So I've become. You are a hot commodity, I guess an expert because experts are, you know, narrow and I'm, I tell people I'm a one trick pony. I, you know, I have taught war at at West Point, you know, strategy and and tactics and everything. But I've been for over a decade just focused on what what about fighting in cities is different and I think it's very different.
 
 

Guy Bloom    03:14 

So for an audience such as mine, where we know, we we think about leadership, I can't help, you know, I won't go too far into that. Sort of the micro of this, but um, how? How much of the difference is, I'm sure the strategic differences and et cetera, but how much of this is behavioural is? Is there a difference that kicks in with people in those kind of spaces?
 
 

John Spencer    03:42 

Yeah absolutely. So what I usually say is urban warfares combat and hill. So it'll put all your strategies all your ideals and this in all your your leadership to the ultimate test, right. War is the ultimate test. But war under that extreme situation in urban fighting where where the buildings where the people are everywhere we it's so hard to really do the things that you've been taught to do leadership and small unit leadership and. Planning and dealing with stress all comes out to bear, right. Cause we can talk about, you know, we do it in the military right from the day you get in. Here are the things that are important about leadership, you know, taking care of your soldiers and you giving clear guidance. All that, well, it gets put to the ultimate test and some of the battles that I've seen. And that's where you see the, the true elements of leadership percolate up and why, why it matters.
 
 

Guy Bloom    04:37 

One of the things I've become more aware of is, and please course correct ignorance yeah so I want to be very careful about talking as if I actually know what I'm talking about. South, you have free reign to go. You might not know what you're talking about there, guys. So let's start from that position. But I do have a sense that in life there are levels to everything and it doesn't matter if it's sport or or whatever, that there's always another level. And I'm guessing in the military and that there are levels of in terms of just either the training that people have had. The experience that they've had, the expectations of different units to operate at higher levels, so. I'd be interested in maybe what might the differences be for what you might have as more elite teams that you'd almost expect to operate at a certain level versus the more everyday soldier. And I'm using very kind of bad language there, I'm sure, and just how almost I think the elite soldier wouldn't suffer that much because they've been trained to be absolutely fine and just does that play out is is or actually? No, it's just human beings guy.
 
 

John Spencer    05:55 

Ohh no, yeah, I mean well, well both. So the answer is yes and yes. I mean even the the most Rambo most elite soldier you can imagine and I was a part of my 25 year career, a part of the Rangers in a multiple high level organizations. It is everybody's a human and they need things to function at that high level, right? So they need that training, gives them confidence in what they're doing. They're physical. Fitness there, the fact that they've been put under mental stress a lot in the past, usually with this elite training does equal to a, you know, a high performing. Individual, but it still comes down to human nature, human elements. The war still impacts that elite soldier when you, you know, when you go down the really, you know to the common soldier, he that common soldier just doesn't have the years of experience that the elite guy does. The the, the years of training, the mental conditioning, the physical conditioning that all help mitigate the the fog and friction. Combat to where they can even perform by themselves for short durations. But the human needs, and this is as we, you know, we go virtual around the world and this is something that I I study as well as. Even in in war and in life, we still need human connections. That soldier on the battlefield still needs to to be motivated from leaders. He still needs confidence in what he's doing. He he saw us have hope. So it all really comes, no matter how elite that person is. Comes down to like some very basic human things. There's we in the military, kind of focusing on, but sometimes we even we forget about that. Doesn't matter if it's a general, you know, Rambo or you're a common Joe, there are human needs that person has to to perform their assigned job.
 
 

Guy Bloom    07:57 

What's the stuff that you know when you see it working, right? That's what's in place to support. That maybe the person that doesn't know what's in them versus the person and the person that maybe has massively high expectations of, you know, I mustn't be weak. I've got everybody's looking at me. What are the things that have to be in place for those things to come out and work at their best.
 
 

John Spencer    08:24 

Yeah, I think you you actually gave the answer in there. It's we call it cohesion. It's this, this bond that gets formed between members of a team that actually there's two types 2. There's social cohesion and meaning. I care about that individual. It's my friend. I'm willing to die if needed to protect that friend and this team. And then there's task cohesion, where we all agree that if we don't work together we can achieve our job in the military, doesn't the way to all the systems in the military work. And there are a lot of you know. Basically systems going on at the same time, right? You know, the training element that discipline the leaders. The magic sauce that makes it all work is that cohesion, right? Because we know and wore that one person operating by themselves, can't. It doesn't work because, you know, all the mental things will come into mind. If they don't know somebody's your left or right, if they're not fighting for something or someone, it all falls apart. So it's interesting in all the research of war going way back, you know, on many armies in many wars, when when you asked the soldier why? Why you fighting? Why were you willing to die for this? You're in this war. The answer is always for the person to my left or right. No, that's a tricky, you know, that's tricky, right? Because we all, every person is a complex social person, right? So that they're fighting for their nation, they're fighting for their families. But in that moment the answer is overriding for the person to my left and right. Well, the problem is that that doesn't just absolutely as soon as you sign up for the military like I did when I was 16, it doesn't. Ok now you you automatically have that in you, the military, you does things to build that in teams and small unit teams to get them to bond together and function as a team. Because war, like life, is not an individual function. It's it's a community, it's a group function off.
 
 

Guy Bloom    10:35 

The I was just with a group of people yesterday and they were two organizations that are having to work together on the same project and they acknowledged that the. You know, this, this moment when it's easy and moments when it's not. So I, I refer to, I draw this thing on a flip chart and I just go, there's you as an individual, there's you as a team, and then there's you as a tribe. So this is just Sebastian Junger kind of stuff, right? So you've got your individual pluses and minuses. You know, it's okay to be an individual character, but you can't play a selfish game. A-team should be. It's okay for it to transact, but it can't become transactional, right? And it's okay to be. In a tribe, like a family, but it can't become tribal where it's, you know, it's all, it's all about us. I, I put this up, you know, when we can have some discussions about it and I think I'm really interested in. This kind of cause that's easy to put something relatively not intellectual but, you know, an idea on a flip chart. But the truth of the matter is. I don't think it's reasonable to ask everybody to like everybody else right because if you go and select 10 people and say after a day, what do you think of them? I'm going to have a distribution curve that goes we really got on yeah and we're so when you're putting people together. Especially in high pressure spaces and places. The best and the worst of us comes out so. Is it? It is about respect. Is it about trust? Is it about what is it that makes it that I unwilling to die for the person on my left or the right when I may or may not want them round my house for dinner? You know, how do you? How do you get there?
 
 

John Spencer    12:21 

Yeah, no, I think it's a great point. And I I get this a lot. Like what? How does what I call cohesion work when you don't like that guy? So through our through us it is. I love your your your breakdown on that chart because it speaks to, it really speaks to me because we used the word tribe or we actually have. I call it the band of brothers effect, but. So where you get into it, we're like, and I've been a part of many teams where I just don't like that guy. You're right, I wouldn't bring him around my family. But this is the the needs of the group and the needs of the individual is when there are functioning team and they've been shown. If they know this is where you get through, practice. That if you if they get shown like a sports team that they work together, they can achieve what the worst assigned job if it's winning in a sports match. But the fact that they they can own it can only happen if they're all working together. So that creates this bond just by the fact that I'm not an individual, I'm part of this team if I don't do my part. That we all fail if he doesn't do his party and I don't like him. But I the, the the bond and the trust and respect is there is and I I yeah, I don't like him, but he's gonna do his part. So we all survive. And this is that group identity that you want people to have in it. And it does take a lot of work from leadership to convince people that, like, you can't do it by yourself, you'll for us, you'll die or you'll fail. In this when they understand it and this is where in all the byproducts and like you said, there are huge negatives, right? If you become so vested in the the group, the group can establish norms or things that they do that are okay that even individual wouldn't be okay with like doing bad things. So there there is a negative to this, but on the positive. Is that there is this you formed this group identity where you care more about the group which includes these people that you don't like, than you do yourself. So that's where and I talk about this as I identities, right? So everybody wants a purpose in life. It doesn't matter even at their jobs or or for us in the military, they want a meaning in life. Sometimes that becomes for us veterans so overwhelming that when we leave the military we feel like we don't have purpose in life. So we've identified with this group and even down to the small groups and we wear unit patches and all this stuff that identify ourselves. We internalise and it becomes a part of our. Entity that we are a part of this group and this group could do great things together and only as a group. So it doesn't matter if I like you or not. If you were part of this group then immediate respect, even if you weren't part of my small group and that's that other human element. To understand that we all want meaning in life and I've had ups and downs of having to question. What mattered most to me and what my identity really was because at times my identity was so strongly aligned to a group that when I left the group I felt lost. So that's just higher level of cohesion, but even if it's a, you know, in a workplace, that's the level of. Cohesion that you want is that they're identifying themselves with the group. In that group only works is every single individual is doing their part. So I talk about this as in like if you face something really hard. You can overcome it as a group, but then just the fact of overcoming it then further bonds the group as and we did that together even though it's really horrible or is really hard. That shared adversity is a huge component of form in the bonds because it shows the group that look that we're not just talking out our, you know, out the side of our mouths. You can only do this if you're working as a group. And that that has all these positives of now you're identifying yourself as a team member.
 
 

Guy Bloom    16:17 

So just for me to make sure I've understood that it's this, almost this shared adversity, but this shared space that we're trying to get to, that is, I call it umbrella beliefs, which is like an umbrella's bigger than you are. And actually, if we can all believe in that, that thing that's bigger than we are, more than the shenanigans. Might be going on between us and I guess it's just like you know the boat sinking we've all got to bail out the boat, right regardless of what we think. So this so I'm I'm hearing the power of getting individuals and into teams by that it's easy just to have a unified vision but they've you can write those statements as you know everyday of the week, but it's it's turning that into something that's palpable on a daily basis.
 
 

John Spencer    17:11 

Yeah, I mean it. It's like it. It sounds simple, but it's definitely not easy. You know, I love stories. I'm a, you know, my writer. I'm a huge fan of stories, being able to translate lessons, life lessons or work lessons. So I I think that's a art and craft loss. But we have those say, you know, some of us are, you know, even more brutal. Like you're only as strong as your weakest link and we'll apply that sometimes as okay. Look, don't be the weakest link. And we do a lot to, you know, in the sayings and the artifacts and the, yeah the meanings of these things, but it really does take work and. It it it's not sappy, but even gets down to this is if the individual and the group thinks that the group cares about them. So this is for us. It's leadership and. It's only when people trust that you care about them, that they care about you. And that's this leader having to have, you know, interpersonal skills, but it that one statement, right, that the person has to trust that you care about his needs. Part of the group, it translates to me to all the secret sauce of the the cohesion, which is the highest performing of teams. And I think that's sometimes while we use sports analogies, because, you know, these these great teams that functioned as as a unit function, almost like without even thinking as a group. Because of what they've done. There's lots of parallels, I think, and that's why we all do. We all love these stories of, you know, seemingly unaccomplished table things that people do when they work together, when when all the systems are firing.
 
 

Guy Bloom    18:50 

Right so that would you used artifacts. I just want to make sure that I understand my understanding of that is the symbolism be it of usually the past maybe something in the future says we have to live up to that is that what I've I'm understanding when you use that word?
 
 

John Spencer    19:09 

Yeah it can be absolutely so culture for us is defined by, you know, all these daily practices and artifacts and stories that you know bond to that moment. So for you know, for war, you know, like the greatest generation, there's unit symbols like we wear patches on the sides of our shoulders, which is a it's it's almost an artifact of what, who came before you and you have to look now you're part of this group, you have to live up to that. And that's why symbols are really do mean a lot to people again back to their identity. Like the people will tattoo it on themselves sometimes when it when it depending on what the the future is. But when you're part of a great team and you join it as a new member you want to live up to that and and sometimes there are different artifacts that that symbolise that meaning.
 
 

Guy Bloom    19:58 

Yeah, I'd. There's some great stuff in there. I'm just. I'm ashamed now. I've just was about to say somebody's name and I've forgotten it, but I've just got to look it up because now if I don't get his name right, I'm gonna be absolutely horrendously embarrassed. But I had Wayne Matthews on that. His name's coming to me now, and Wayne Matthews is a Texas Ranger. And the the great the greatest sort of and and that the artifacts of the of the Texas Ranger but it it's in the Texas. Airport which is the the the the one riot, one Ranger statue. I don't know if you know that story, but it's so there's a there's a statue of a Ranger and the story goes that there was a fight going on or an expected. It's a bit of a riot due to some boxing match that went terribly wrong. And the Texas Ranger gets off the train and the mayor goes, you know, where's the rest of you? And he goes, one riot, one Ranger nice and if and if you're joining that, that cadre of human being, that art, that story, that narrative, you know, no, we can handle it. You yes, of course, backups are beautiful thing, but there are times when you've just got to stand strong and get on with the job. And so I think these kind of these stories of bringing the history of how we got here and the narratives that went along with that. I mean, I'm not her Texas Ranger, but it still affects me. Just think it sends goosebumps up my arm just thinking about it, right?
 
 

John Spencer    21:28 

Yeah, there's one for me, you know, and this story is historical fiction in some moments, but there's this movie called 300 about the Spartans who stood at the monopoly, which is a true story. There's a little ad Lib in there, but when the Spartan king, you know, talking to the other armies says, you know, what's your job? I'm a I'm a banker, you know, I'm a, I'm a a blacksmith. And he's. And he asked the Spartans, what is your job? See, I brought more soldiers to. Yeah, it for me that that that. You know since chills down my spine just to these are the identities and these are the stories that I think people sometimes. Don't understand how much humans we need these.
 
 

Guy Bloom    22:12 

I'm really interested in this because everything can go too far. You know something people can become tribal, they can become everything's got a dial on it where, you know, it becomes an overdone strength. But if you, you know, if I had to have more or less of a thing, I'd probably rather have more of a thing. And and that identity that there is this drive amongst a lot of people to not to be a clique, not to be as a club, not to have a. It's difficult to get into and to penetrate, but actually no, it is. There's a standard and only the best get in and and there's always a balance to that. But actually if you wanna be in this company, it's hard to get in because we have a higher standard. If you want to be in this team, look, there is a, there is a level and if you can't maintain it, no, you're not going to stay here. And we shouldn't be afraid of that because actually that's what that's what we are, that's how we operate. So I kind of like that thinking to a as long as it's managed and controlled and it doesn't get out of hand, of course.
 
 

John Spencer    23:11 

And and and if you're a new organization right? So how do you build that if you don't have that generations past or those stories you have to build your own? And this is where the leader has to establish. What does it mean to be a part of this group? Well, there's a company or it's a small team like, OK, let's set some shared. Shared standards. What does it mean to be part of this group? Like, well, OK, we for me, I'm I'm a part of a community called Ranger, and it's a part of me. And there's like, these very old stories of what it means. Like, we will not lie to each other. We will keep our weapons ready to go. We will. You know, these things that can be it's just part of being in leading high performing teams as you establish these standards. And it's not that you write them down and tell everybody you're going to follow them. It's literally a conversation that you have to hold people to. And I've faced this, it's really dark times, even within the military where I took a I took an organization that was completely failing, literally had just been destroyed by the enemy and I had to bring everybody in and go okay, look, this is day one, we're going to start over. But this is what it means to be a part of this company. There will be clear black and white standards. We will do these things and we won't do these, and then having the whole group agree to those. And we had to create our own. You know what it meant to be a part of the company, and it can't be everything, right? Everything can't be important or nothing's important powerful and I I I think I've come to understand that um people want, they don't want to be dictated to, but they want clarity. You know, they don't want to be. They want to live in an autocratic situation, but they want, they want to have a clear understanding about what good is. And that might even mean it's not the good I would choose. But if that's what we're all doing here, as long as we all do it, I'm in because actually it's supporting something that is bigger than me. And I think that's that really shines through, definitely.
 
 

John Spencer    25:21 

Right, I agree 100 % and I've had, you know, only because of, you know, getting older and I've done a lot of self reflection. Sometimes I didn't even realise all this, but I really think that. Everybody is searching for meaning. And look, being a part of a group doing work or whatever won't be, shouldn't be somebody's soul meaning in life, right? Because but they in every way and everything that we do everyday, we want to be a part of something good and doing something that has meaning. That to me can translate to every part of our lives. I have multiple identities now as I'm I've gotten older, but I I look back and realise that sixteen seventeen eighteen i was really searching for meaning you know, I went into the military and the military gives you a lot, doesn't give you everything. But to look back now and to dissect all of it, you could really point to every situation that either I or the group needed that. Meaning in that purpose. And as the I think as the leader you had to be the kind of the the Coxon Rowan you directing the boat. But there's a right there's purpose for everybody's actions and they're. It's it. It is, it is. It is very simple but very complex.
 
 

Guy Bloom    26:41 

I think I'm fascinated by that, particularly for me obviously in a commercial context, which is the the doing versus the being the the what we've done versus the manner in which we've done it and I do see. In commercial. Spaces where as the funnel towards maybe an end game of a payout or an acquisition or integration or a whatever that or a bonus or whatever. As that funnel gets narrower and narrower and it goes from three years away where hey, it's all about culture and the way we're going to be. But when it comes to, hey this payout happens in six months, people start to lose their marbles and you know that that that that kind of not allowing the outcome. So outweigh the manner of approach and people to become obsessed about the output and the internal dialogue is if you ask people at interview what does good look like they all know. But actually the the gap between them, what they're actually doing and this is when good people. End up doing. I don't mean necessarily evil things, but let's just say doing things the wrong way because they're relationship with the intellectual, and then the pressure of the outside world overwhelms them. And I wonder if that's the same in the experiences that you've had.
 
 

John Spencer    28:08 

Yeah, absolutely. And for us it can it can translate to to actual evil things, right? So men doing really bad things because we in the military are given a lot of autonomy because we're considered experts in our field. So that means you get a lot of trust and autonomy from either our bosses, which is the public, or your direct boss. And when the when the the doing of the job becomes or being a part of the group became. More important than the purpose really, the the meanings. Like it's a roundabout way to do your question. I'm just queuing to your evil part because I have seen. Good men do evil things because they were. They had lost their way in what them, why they were there or what they were doing, even though they were being told, like for us to destroy enemy. A lot. There have been times in our history where people have lost the sight of that. But why are we doing that? Because we're trying to protect people. We're trying to instill good and human rights and all these things. So those groups go away. Off, off, off of that. But like in the corporate I agree with you, you can get lost in. And forget that, people. I forget about the actual human element of all this, and I'm really adamant about this, no matter what the job is, no matter what the profession. Is when you lose sight of the fact that they're humans doing this i'm i'm also very interested in proximity. If you have, if you, if, if the person that's in charge is 3 feet away from you or three meters away from you, that's very different to them being 3 miles away from you or 300 miles away from you and that kind of. And I see this where when the senior people are in the office, that's one thing. When they're in another floor when they're in another. Building another city and then you get to remote working, etcetera. So how does proximity play in to whether or not people can stay? And and what stay on target?
 
 

John Spencer    30:29 

Yeah, I think it's that's a great question. I so proximity is definitely needed to form cohesion, right? So people need to be around each other. That's why I don't. You don't want the purpose of my book was about this virtual element that we could all just virtually interact in when you're talking about echelons of an organization that could be tens of thousands big. The you it's on those lower level leaders to to to to have that direct effect. But I'm a huge advocate of even the the very top leadership stories will transfer of how that leader is as a person, right? Is he? You know, you follow great leaders because you want, you see some great things in them and it's usually passed through stories, I think, and we in the military, if if you're a very bad person or toxic leader, what we have that will. Even if it only happened once, that will translate down to the lowest guy through the Grapevine, through the stories. So that's the understanding of higher level leaderships is that they have that. They do have that effect. It just transfers through stories rather than face to face interactions. But I'm a huge believer in even the highest level in our great leaders like our generals and things like that. You know about their stories of how they took a moment to thank somebody while they were out doing circulation or they they told they have a personal story that gets out about what they did and how they interact with people. That's where I think that proximity works for the as you echelon this up to business. Is that? This is the the. The part about leading is that they're always watching. And they're watching because they're going to tell a story about you. So you know these leaders that send a personal note or they stop while they're they're touring and they, you know, they they do something human. Isn't it is absolutely about the person that they're doing that with and and for showing their humanity. But for for the organization that will spread like wildfire, both the positive and the negative. So I think that's for me where that comes into it as I've we know, we all know stories are great leaders and sometimes they're not good stories, but some of our best are just the the human side of our the greatest.
 
 

Guy Bloom    33:03 

Leader there is something about you can't be at all places all the time, but the stories told about you will create a proximity to you because of the manner of which it's being relayed. You know, and and if it's a constant theme, it could be a constant theme that's negative or positive, but the reality is if you get the balance right. But there might be something about the human stories. Spread and stick more because they sit outside of justice, the boundary of expectation. You know, he he she sent a personal note. What, from his secretary? No, no, you could tell he'd handwritten it. Yeah, but was it on a laser printer? No, no, it was real ink. Ohh, real link. It actually written it? Yeah ohh my gosh. It's that small thing that spreads, I guess.
 
 

John Spencer    33:49 

Yeah, absolutely. And there's so many, like, little facets of that, right? Like in the military, we have coins, yes. With these coins, which is interesting, goes back to our artifacts like it goes back to. So this a coin for us is a recognition of something that was done, either person's personal hard work or things like that, so that and they don't give them out to everybody. Like there has to be value in the symbol. So that's another element of this coming down in in giving people meaning, giving them something they they'll value. I say it's about creating moments and there's a, there's lots of. Great books about this on how organizations and leaders create moments and it's creating moments both for the organization. So those are those wins, right? All organizations need wins and sometimes when they're in a really bad place, they have to you got a formula, you got to create that win for them, even in the bad times. But everybody, it's it's also moments of. Individual moments, right? So stories that they'll tell about themselves. I was a part of this organization. This is what happened. You This is why. You know, like you said, stories are so fascinating because they transfer. They they they they they last through times and they'll be what people remember. It is these moments that were created or, and you can actually design moments of the US military is huge about overdesigning them. And that actually devalues sometimes and my it it can devalue them that OK, we all do this. It's supposed to create a moment for you like, hey, you got promoted. But it's it. The good organizations and a good leaders can create these moments that are like you said, they're transferring stories of what we value. Like I'm going, I'm the head leader, I'm going to, I will come down to the the shop floor and thank people personally, things like that or you know, these. These artifacts that get created and then given out and not to everybody because they have to have value but they're given out and then that transfers. So this is that, you know, that complex aspect of leading individuals by creating stories, stories of the organization and creating moments. And for them, which then cycle back to them want to be part of the group. I've given them purpose in their life and things like that she's separate podcast to stop this topic. It's it's so fast, but I really wanna talk about the connected soldier, your new, your new book, which I'll put the link to in the description and it's on Amazon as we speak. So we'll definitely sort of push people towards that. But just bring together for me just, you know, what was the catalyst for it, the motivation that triggered you to give your time because having written a book. I know that, you know, they're not always the easiest things to get out and I've had many a moment with my head on the table going, it's beating me. But but how did how did it, how did it come to be bring it to life for us?
 
 

John Spencer    36:57 

Sure so, you know, towards the end of my career, I transferred into this research, you know, teaching cadets right so I'm at the United States Military Academy. It's a very sacred place. It's a very special place. And I was teaching young people. I mean, I had been in 25 years at the moment, and they loved to hear stories. They wanted to hear about real moments of leading people in adversity. And it didn't matter if I even asked. I mean, I they wanted my stories if I asked for him or not. So that was, I think that was the catalyst for me wanting to write down some of my stories that do show the good and the bad of organizations and trying to lead people in combat which, you know, the cadets really wanted to hear about. So the the book connected soldiers is a memoir. So it's a it's about my 2003 deployment in direct, my 2008 deployment into Baghdad, Iraq during the really tough times. And then interestingly, I think unique my time in 2018 where my wife, who is also a soldier, went off to war and I stayed home and led the the home front, right, the three small kids, which is, you know, lots of stories just in that with the theme, right. Because, you know, as in the book you I had lots of stories and I got stories for days, but I had to put a theme and like, why are you writing this book? I wanted to, I wanted to show the lessons I had learned. But I also discovered leading in an organization when the world world changes, is that you all you you can't live in a vacuum. So the the theme of the book is how really all of our social media and instant connections was changing how we were leading the organizations and and forming bonds. So of course everything we talked about up to this point was really it's in the book, right? So this how do you form highly functioning organizations when they have? You know the ability to reach out to any other support network, especially in war, which which is a very unique situation, but that the lessons here transfer on. You know, how do you rebuild a team that suffered a lot? Because that's what it was in 2008 How do I? You know, lead my family when you know they're under my kids run a lot of stress, but could talk to mom everyday and how did that impact her? So I tried to put a lot of stories in the truth and people like, you know, they don't want all these. Sometimes you're in. The cadets didn't want to hear all the good. They want to hear the bad so that they want to hear real stories. Of of doing what they're told to be doing, all the theories of what works and what doesn't. That's what I really tried to do in the book, and as you know that that's no easy task. So it's about connections it's, about giving people meaning. But it's also about what is it take to lead people. While people still have now all these different because the world has changed and and organizations do have to change. When we have almost a virtual identity, a virtual life that is a huge part of our daily lives, people have to figure out how to not lose what we know works. So, like for the military, like we know eating together, the proximity of sleeping next to each other, things like these work and informing cohesive bonds. So as we move forward as a world into this connected life, there's still human needs in both life and in. In leading organizations.
 
 

Guy Bloom    40:36 

And who? Who is the book for? Who do you want to read it, John?
 
 

John Spencer    40:44 

So I think it's 4. Soldiers, of course, but I I think you could remove the all the military terms and it would be for leaders. But then I do put human elements of this, so I think it's for anybody who's just interested in. How the military works, because I do really try to translate when I started writing you. All of us have organizations that speak their own language right in the military is is infamous for this. So I really do try to translate it down for like my mom is reading it to understand how the military works. And then I you cause I put this whole section of the book that is about leaving my family. I think it sometimes people forget that the family is a huge part of the individual doing the work. So do I have one audience? I you know I I'd say it was for me because it was it was very therapeutic for me to write my stories down and to get get it out there. But hopefully it's it's it's an interesting story that just somebody wants to read, a very unique story about modern day soldiers. But leaders who want to. Maybe have a different story to tell on why would the things that we do are important? Cause like we we talked about, right? Yeah, the Spartans at Thermopylae. We lead through stories.
 
 

Guy Bloom    42:08 

Yeah, I know when I was writing it, it sort of took the spaghetti of my brain and actually clarified a great deal of what I was actually trying to say by happening to make it coherent for others. So I kind of, I can imagine that was a a similar process for you. And and what's your kind of, um in terms of your role today and where you are you speaking to organisations? Are you is it? No, I really only focus in that kind of military space. How do people connect and engage with each other?
 
 

John Spencer    42:46 

Yeah, so I, I do actually. You know, I still work for the military, so I absolutely still go talk to. I travel around the world talking to military organizations. I also talked to corporate organizations of course, I even. Interestingly, we have had a small kind of line of talking to groups that are very concerned about how much connectivity is impacting youth. So that's been really interesting for me, not knowing that that would be a huge part of the work is there is, there are red flags that bring up in the book and that's really some of the things I ask more questions that I have answers, right. There's there's not a lot of answers, but it's asking the right questions. So people find me though through my social media. I have a little bit of a, you know, thing with social media, which is kind of an oxymoron, right. The book is about warning about some of the negatives of connected life and I I spent a lot of time because it is a is a powerful megaphone reach. All kinds of people I'm not, I've even, you know, travelled to the Ukraine because I I think it's important to be able to translate. Even military stuff to the masses in Ukraine was about an entire country that had to overnight figure out how to do things and I. Separate than all my affiliations. Wrote a book for them on how I'm teaching people how to how to fight. But if you take all the all the the horrible things about war away, it is about writing clear instructions like we've talked about that that form people into groups to do something, even if it's a if something as bad as fighting a war. So hopefully I'm not spreading myself too thin and say like, OK John, who are you? What are you doing? Because I think that we all have common messages that we need to hear often. So I do get asked by a wide variety, surprisingly, of groups, which I think is, you know, a part of my identity. And I've I've achieved something. Like I said, I have a dream job, not just because I get to study war and I I think that's important, but I get to go talk to all these different communities and they value what I have to say.
 
 

Guy Bloom    45:01 

I do you have anything else in, in the pipeline? Is there is there a stage or phase two for you or are you, do you know what I'm just going to see where the next little bit of road likes me?
 
 

John Spencer    45:13 

Ohh no. So I I have a lot. So I have a book coming out in a couple of months on urban warfare right at the job. I actually have a book, which is funny, we've been talking about this. So I have a book that's in a draft called twenty. Times i almost died. Just because I by the beauty of the role of the military, I have been exposed to some great situations that people love to hear about. And I really love the entertain, as in tell stories that are real, like how I got my ear bit off in a fight, how I got hit in the face by killer bees in Panama or, you know, almost died here, here and here. But I've actually have over 20 stories. Of times I almost died that that people tell me you gotta put that, you gotta, you gotta write that book i think the moment that book comes out, I want you to come immediately back on because we've we've got to because I want to go there now but I'm not going to. So it's not the Darwin Awards, but it's how I nearly ended up on the Darwin. The Darwin, yes. What's 20 times sounds fantastic. So listen John, I am just I've I could keep you for the next three hours, but I'm just. Alert to the length of a a healthy podcast and I'm going to put all the connections to you in the description as well. So just from me to you, this is being, I think just we've scratched the surface on I think what we could talk about and maybe we'll talk about some of the things we can get you to come back and focus on. But just from me to you, it's been an absolute joy having you on. Thank you so much.
 
 

John Spencer    46:53 

Thanks guy, I actually mean it's a huge part of what I do is that forming connections. And I think even when you sit down for a conversation like this, you form a connection with somebody. So I I really appreciate that.
 
 

John Spencer    47:03 

And so I'll press the stop button and we'll we'll keep talking for a few minutes. That's it. So I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please share so others get to hear about us and subscribe so you keep up to date on new episodes. Also, visit livingbridge.com if you want to connect with me and find out more about executive coaching, team effectiveness and changing culture. Ohh, and of course you can buy my book, living brave leadership. On Amazon. So on that note, see you soon.