Colin Jellicoe, Group Human Resources Director, M Group Services

Colin is a hugely experienced HR Director with a vast experience of insight, value creation and enabling of businesses through high value HR interventions.

He works is the Group HR Director for M Group Services. M Group Services delivers a range of essential infrastructure services within the water, energy (retail and infrastructure) transport and telecommunication in UK & Ireland, they employ circa 9,000 skilled specialists working from 100 locations, operates a divisional structure aligned with its end markets.

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Transcript

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colin um it is fantastic to have you on this episode of leadership bites welcome hi guy absolute privilege sir to join you and your podcast given the uh the enormity of some of the characters you've had i feel very privileged so thank you well that's what they're going to think when they see you so that's okay you see so they'll go he must be he must be important look at him he's on that podcast all good there you go so listen colin i i know you we've worked together for you know uh we've known each other over some many years and had moments of dipping in and out of each other's contacts and done some great work together in the past so i'm mini set makes me sound old well you know i think we're vintage that's that's what i'm saying so we're vintage we know each other pretty well and i've been kind of really keen to get you on um the podcast but um you know it's just been a matter of timing but so just for people that don't know who you are who are you and what do you do and what's the role that you're in and then we can kind of kick off from there okay uh so yeah i'm colin um i am uh i guess an hr professional uh i've operated across leadership uh roles within hr for probably probably best part of 18 nearly 20 years i guess at senior level a generalist um i'm currently group hr director for m group services who for those that are perhaps not familiar with the name we we operate across the utilities sector uh delivering essential services to um gas water electricity blue chip clients uh throughout throughout the uk that's so that's the that's the official official leading that's it so i i noticed i noticed that uh when i think about buying a car i suddenly become alert to cars and see them all over the place so when i knew you were going to work you know and i started seeing morrison utility vans all over the place wherever i was going and they were obviously there before but i just hadn't i hadn't been paying attention to them but it's very much like that you you will you will see um yeah morrison utility services dyram butler uh iwjs are a whole series of 16 different brands in the business that that bring pretty much the full range of of services in regulated environments to uh to our clients and ultimately their customers and that's that's what we that's what we do really well is uh is keep the gas flowing keep the electricity on uh and keep the water flowing so that um you know you can get out of bed have your shower have your cup of tea and uh and get on your way to work so yeah it's um you know a privilege really again to be in a in a sector that that does have such an impact on uh on on the uk uh it's um been interesting throughout covid um you know the focus on on key workers has has been uh has rightly been paramount um and you know for us i guess the slightly less than public face of utilities keeping keeping the nhs going uh you know keeping all of those services that that we've needed um you know we've we've been there for uh we've been there for the uk really and it's and it's privileged to be in that position we we understand so yeah it's it's great but it's it's a good business yeah it is and it's it's one of those ones that it's like all things in life that you don't really fully understand what's what the need of it is until what you've got stops working absolutely so i noticed that you know with a couple of that's why so i just know there's a bit of a bit of a lot there's a little bit of a lull so i'm just learning you would think that we were in different countries and we're absolutely not um but yeah i i uh to to make myself focused on the importance of these things i bought a house in in mid wales which is off-grid for gas off-grid for water uh and barely on-grid for electricity so i completely appreciate now what we do for all of our customers and yeah it's it's it's definitely painted in a different in a different light for me it's interesting so colin you know you you um it's actually interesting in terms of the size of the business people-wise approximately what's the kind of contingent that you you're dealing with how many people are in the business okay so yeah so so across the 16 businesses we we've got just a shade under 10 000 directly employed people at the moment um probably half of that is what i guess traditionally would be described as as blue collar um the guys who are who are in the field uh doing the doing the dirty work for us day in day out and the rest of those are the staff um support services behind to make sure that that all works so about about 10 000 but the reality is is that that maybe is half or maybe a third of the total workforce population that that we have uh you know on or in the field every day we use a lot of contract labor as well which is just the nature of this of this sector so yeah we're probably providing employment opportunity for more like maybe 25 to 30 000 people on a on a daily basis which which makes us a significant course really in in this sector well i think enough can help a lot of people so for me then too because we're going to get into what you're focusing on now and what the focus has been but i always say on these episodes that i think knowing somebody's journey to where they are really helps me value what it is that they then talk about in the present day so and we were joking about it just before we came on but it'd be great to hear that you know how did colin get here what with some of the ebbs and flows um that you know the experiences that make up the man it'd be great to hear him uh yeah okay well let's go right back then um yeah so so i guess brought up on the whirl um i i've tried to lose my sort of semi-scouse accents that uh that i i've had but then i've lived in the south for it for a long time but um yeah i grew up on the on the whirl um and uh and i went to school and everything there um didn't didn't do hugely well at school was one of those things that didn't seem entirely important to me at the time i'm sure i'm i'm not the only one in in that space and probably spent more time i guess for me focused on stuff like the duke of edinburgh's award and um i was a a member of the uh boys brigade for for many years so uh so those sorts of things you know outside sports um you know helping community but all those sorts of things which um which which that's actually really important to me um rather than school work probably resulted in me leaving school with not really very much in the qualification front um and um i had no idea really what i wanted to do there was there was not really a great career plan um father it was uh worked at uh camelot shipbuilders so he was a a plater um and i recall worked many many long hours in what was probably a bit of a dirty job really um grandfather was a shop floor manager in them in the business that uh made stork margarine so they they were probably my influences um didn't really fancy the dirty job at camellaides if i'm honest um which was i guess was the encouragement from from one side of the other family um but yeah no idea what i wanted to do um maybe a bit of white collar work a bit of admin was was the way that it sort of it was sort of looking and i was really lucky i uh despite not wanting to go to camellias i did join camellards and and got a job really a commercial apprenticeship at the time which was probably revolutionary actually you think now that we've got uh what you know white collar apprenticeships and uh and they're all the rage um you know for its time to get a commercial apprenticeship as it was described was was a bit novel and and i got that off the back of being able to talk about the things i've done around duke of edinburgh and and and what i've done in in boys brigade um it it pretty much set me up to be honest and um we had a good two-hour conversation with the training manager as i recall at the time um and focused on all those things about um leadership and you know teamwork and and all that sort of gubbins and and it obviously was enough to get me to get me a job so i started off at camelot as a commercial apprenticeship in in the days when trade unions were were a big thing in in that part of the world uh quite a militant workforce uh first job was in hr or personnel and welfare as uh as some people will recall it being called um as i recall it wasn't a great deal of welfare that went on um but uh there was a lot of a lot of recruitment a lot of um er type issues um occasionally getting in uh you know bit into a bit of a tussle with a trade union official but it was um it absolutely set you know set you up for for life really it was it was a lot of lessons learned um you know salt by earth people that um you know really understood that their jobs and and were great at what they did um and it was it was you know i probably yeah probably would have stayed there for a while i never really got out of the personnel function um it was uh it just seemed to be like an almost a natural fit really um so we did quite a bit of quite a bit of work there but it was around the time um that um yeah the the uh i guess our relationship with russia had uh had started to um to defrost slightly um the military shipyards went into a a bit of a decline and and i uh i needed to move on so i left cameloads went into the construction sector uh joined a business called norwestholst um still based up in liverpool um and uh i stayed with them for 22 years and and that business grew from um you know predominantly us a smallish building civils and uh utilities company into uh what is now the the vinci or vanci uh business um and um yeah it's part of a massive uh construction company and and i was i finished there after 22 years as hr director for for the uk and and our operations overseas in the middle east but you know again those you know those those sectors that sort of construction sector goes goes from boom to to to bust and there's there's a lesson you know almost at every turn in the roads you know there's something to to be learned and um you know have i ever thought about a job outside of hr well no not really it's it's pretty much given me a different a different job a different challenge a different interest almost every day of the 30-ish years that i've been in in that sector so yeah 22 years of vinci lots of acquisitions lots of growth lots of really good people engineers absolutely focused in there in that very blinkered way that engineers are are focused and and the challenges that came with looking after after that sort of population was great stuff um and then i sort of thought to myself well yeah hrd big business looked after the whole of the uk can i can i see myself being there for another 20 years um do i want to retire doing this job uh and ultimately the answer came back no so um i i left vinci and um i embarked on what i would describe now as a bit of an adventure uh i went and worked in south korea as you do as you do as you do um i have to say what i said to a lot of people going to work overseas south korea wasn't the first place they thought of um but yeah i went to work for samsung um cnt which is a construction and trading business is the sort of mothership really of the samsung corporation people only think of tv and i remember i remember when you went obviously because obviously i knew you then and you know samsung and i went well and it's not so much it was career but i didn't who knew i mean you know they do tvs right but they are enormous they're vast i mean i mean huge and and um and the the extent of that business is is not really realized um by almost anybody outside the outside of the business i mean it's you know whether it's medical uh equipment which is now you know around the around the globe really uh leading edge uh from that whether it's pharmaceuticals whether it's um ship building um construction they trade i think still still significant shareholders in businesses like starbucks and and uh and businesses like that um you know most people would would have said yeah tvs or or phones mobile phones and and really you know both both of those activities really bolt on to the to the core business that that they had had since 1923 which was yeah construction and buying and selling stuff um and and some of the stuff they built um around and have built and continued to build around the globe is um you know absolutely phenomenal stuff in terms of engineering feats um and it's a it's a but it's a culturally it's a very very different place to go work um it had its challenges all almost daily from you know from you've had to start work at eight o'clock um to um you have to sit and listen to the 10 minute tv show that's on it at 8 o'clock till ten past um and then the strangest thing in the world happened was that most of the koreans fell asleep um and um and didn't wake up until almost lunchtime when when they would eat and then spend the afternoon and most of the evening working very hard and so it was it was a bit of a novelty really um lots of people were asleep uh sat around you in the morning it was a bit of a a bit of a shock to the system um but you know i was 15 months with samsung and and some of the opportunities that came my way being you know i i guess with the the background of of uh vinci who they looked up to from a construction perspective and thought very highly of um and being an expat uh in a part of the world where there were very very few of us um just just led to it's a huge huge opportunity and i you know i travel to places most of which i i can i can remember with with um some degree of um uh happiness and some of them that i never ever want to go anywhere near again if i'm being perfectly honest um you know i i often hear people talk about saudi arabia and and they say oh yeah it's it's very it's very cons you know rehab is very conservative and um and they go yeah well it's not really in comparison to some of the places that that um you know i went to with samsung it is a real a real shock to the system um but yeah whether that was being in australia or uh malaysia or singapore and some of the stuff that to get involved in which you know i i look back on now i think i had no right to get involved in stuff like that it was not core hr activity actually it was just good general business leadership and development um and um you know it was a challenge it was a huge challenge being asked to do stuff that was outside of my comfort zone but you know i i came back a completely different character to the one that i went and hopefully hopefully better for it um but yeah it was 15 months came back uh did a little bit of a stint for network rail um for uh predominantly around the property business and uh and their group functions um and then the opportunity at m group services or morrison utility services as it was at the time came up and you know again opportunity growing business very acquisitive and good organic growth um fantastic people and i think probably what i've learned about business over over 30 something years not going to give you the exact number of years but 30 something years um is it's just you know people first people second and people last at these these organizations is just about people um and uh you know it's a it's a great joy really to be able to be in a position where getting the most out of our people is it you know it is my challenge um you know it's absolutely about getting maximum benefit from from our people in whichever way we can and looking after them and taking great care of of what is and often said but but what you know what our is and are our greatest asset uh we have we have nothing else we don't have very much property we generally don't know in the vehicles that we use um it's our people and uh and that's a again a great privilege really for for us to be in a position where where we uh we want to work with them and to get the most out of those people so there you go i love it i love it and of course you know we've known each other i don't know how long we've known each other is it 15 years is it or longer 20. i don't know no no no it's not definitely not 20. 12 is probably about 12. yeah well i said this because you know kevlar because you know kevin green who is a colleague of mine who you know who has worked with you as well with me and uh he said i said he said to me how long have we known you i said 12 years is no it's over 20. so i was like okay i'm never quite sure but uh but i'm just wondering if an email's gone out now around samsung going check if anybody's asleep at their desk and if they are because there's a bloke on a uk podcast who used to work for us who's just said yeah well they won't be very happy if they hear that i've said back to them i'll be honest i'll be hilarious this will be played at the board in korea it's a fantastic experience and i would say to anybody that you know you sometimes you look at those opportunities and um and you you think shall i sean i shall i and i know lots of people who have gone no let's just let's just take the safe bet but um it was an opportunity that that it was gifted to me because of the experience i've gained with with another with with vinci with another business and i would say if anyone was in that position you know go for it it's it's not always easy and it's not always straightforward um but you know everything every single day is a learning experience every day is a training day and um i you know i i look back i've forgotten all of all of the the challenges but where it was it was very difficult and you know i remember now with with fullness that you know that the country and the people and most of the things that i got involved in and you know the family that went with me equally you know they are shaped by the experience as we all are they're shaped by the experiences that we enjoy and um and they're you know they wouldn't change it for the world it was it was a great opportunity great experience but yeah culturally very different well so there's two things for me there i i often think that you get to a level where you know your stuff and of course you're always going to learn and every day is a school day and all that kind of stuff but you get to a point where in essence i know my trade and when you get to that level people often go especially for senior leadership you know it's well how do i develop and it's exposure it's exposure to inverted commas stuff because you know what your job is it's now about your personal growth so the experience of you is deeper because you are more because of inverted commas stuff which doesn't sound very scientific but i think i've come to believe that is it no no it's not scientific at all but but you know that the fact is is that yeah it is it is the stuff that that comes along and you know and you take time to understand and understand people and and um yeah it all it's for me now it's all all have a you know a really positive positive effect but um yeah i always say to people you you've just got you've got to take those opportunities when they come so how you mentioned you came back um i don't know if you said better for it or even different but what what was the difference what you know how who were you when you went who were you when you came back yeah i think i think probably what i had to realize when i got over there was was that whilst there was a degree of respect for the experience that you gained and you know i went through 11 interviews to get to get that job at samsung it was it was no it was no quick quick um you know two minute conversation in costa coffee on the uh on the services it was it was you know a thorough a really thorough process and two or three trips over to uh to south korea to meet people and um but when i got there it all the experience counted for nothing um you know it was my my knowledge of employment law my knowledge of trade unions and the er side um even the way that you know i understood that leaders thought and and although they processed things and the commercial all of that change all of that went straight out the window because koreans operate completely differently you know i've got to start just i mean it's it's a different it's a different world yeah it fundamentally is it is a different world and you know i i had to start to sit there and go i can't use anything i brought with me you know i can't and i don't mean i don't mean a pack of papers that i'd picked up and and and brought with me or the ideas that i've put into effect at vinci and other places it was there's nothing i've got there's nothing in in my brain that i i can you know use from the past i've gotta i've gotta work out how i can make a difference and that's you know for me that's really important is how do i make a difference to this business um in in a very short space of space of time and you know try doing that when they don't speak english and i definitely don't speak any korean um so you know you you're dealing with interpreters who who put their own slant on on things as well um which i'll learn quickly that's very interesting is it did i just did i actually just say that you know that's interesting isn't it yeah because that isn't the reaction yeah you give me an answer to a question i definitely didn't ask what's going on there um yeah so so you sort of you sort of learn to work with with that and of course also you know i'm i mean hr uh in a foreign place with about 60 expats and suddenly all 60 expats want to feed all of their problems into me thinking that i can i can fix them and up you know it wasn't really part about the job um so i think um yeah humbled in in lots of respects um i i think you know acknowledging that i you know i work with some very very bright people um you know lots of people with mbas and phds and so forth from you know in samsung's own words that the best that the world had to offer were were gathered together in um in seoul you know to make samsung you know the best business that that it could be and you know that's that's humbling um i think um you know the the experience of of having to understand you know a a foreign um to me what was what was a foreign culture and a completely different way of going going about about business um you know even down to the you know we don't we don't shake hands um what you need to do instead is to learn how far you bow um you know if if you're if you're at 90 if you're not at 90 degrees when you bow to a to an executive vice president you're doing something wrong you know it's it's it's it's all of that how do i operate in in this space how do i get over the basics um and um and all of that was you know was it was a massive learning experience i guess i guess there were also things that that they were asking us to fix uh for them in in in south korea which at the time um i i just i i think i i've not really taken from the uk as being an issue so this was 2000 in end of 2013 uh beginning 2014. and i can remember that one of the things that they said to us very early on and it was it was a task really that we just needed to to get the hr function to to work with really was the fact that people use their phones all the time and you think well isn't that isn't that good you know but but but no um you know they're using their phones all the time and actually i i sat in an interview with a with two executive vice presidents um for uh for a for a role and um and during the call they both took phone calls so during an interview they both both took phone calls and and they literally answered the phone and put their head below the desk to have the conversation and you think i i i i get it now so that the phone had pretty much become the the determining factor in where their priorities lay um and um and you know they recognize that and but i never saw that as an issue in the uk before i went when i came back um and it was only you know it was two years i suddenly there's a actually i can see that becoming an issue and and from then to now you know we do have that issue we as business we are you know everyone's got a phone laptop ipad i mean they come coming to meetings armed with all of this kit and you're never really sure whether they're in the meeting and present and participating or whether they're doing emails or their shopping list or but that's probably a slightly disingenuous but you know that they're involved in something else i guess again reflecting that the timing in south korea probably gave me a little bit of a window to what the future was going to be like in terms of problems for for the uk and what we've i've returned to um and uh you know how we how we might we might challenge that a little bit really and it's it is about that being present isn't it it's about the you know i'm talking i'm talking to you today and i'm focused on you i've not got a phone around me and you know that that my attention is is with you but but often how how many times do we have conversations where actually i'm not really sure that the person who's talking to me is actually with me in the room and presents and um you know it's yeah i guess that sort of insight of the the the things which have uh which i think have stood me in good stead for when i've come back really and um and also i i i went i i think i'm quite commercial as hr i think i i can you know i can read a p l account i can read a balance sheet i can do all that sort of stuff i understand the concept of um you know return on investment and et cetera et cetera i get all of that um but the opportunities i had whilst i was i was working overseas to to get involved in in bidding jobs and and you know business planning and uh and all of that sort of stuff has just given me an insight that i would never have had otherwise and that's that's probably you know it's it's changed the way i look at um the people who are doing those jobs in the uk and i'm probably a bit more considerate of the challenges that they have and the tasks that they have and the pressure that comes with with those jobs um yeah yeah so i think i'm probably um slightly less than i've probably i've probably i have high standards um you know all the teams that have ever worked for me will tell you and you know most you know a lot of those people so they will tell you that you know we we get things right and um and perfection is is to be uh is to be expected um and um but i think i've probably come back slightly more tolerant um yeah probably a bit more uh considerate of of people of what people have got to cope with in the round um and how that affects them in work so yeah it's made me made me a a better and more considerate individual i guess and and you brought no not at all but we've got this slight delay which is i've not had before but we'll we'll we'll manage past it which is i know you to be um highly commercial i mean you say commercial but i think you the one of the things i really note about you is that there are it's over simplistic but to say that there are hr people who are the caricature of hr people which any role can that be its own caricature but that is and the character yeah and the hr caricature to me is incredibly knowledgeable uh about hr uh sometimes uses uh the um the law to kind of try and leverage influence as if well that is the law you know and that's what we've got to do or or they talk about things as if it's the law but actually it's just best practice that's not actually what actually has to happen and you know you've always struck me as one of those people that can sit in a room and say well i might not be the ops director and i might not be the sales director but i do know what you're talking about and i'm very capable of having a conversation with you at that level and i think that's one of the credibility points that has always shone through um about you and i guess that's leading me to a question that is you know when you've got people in that hr role the importance in your mind of it's almost a given that you understand hr that you understand the law or whatever but how do you it's the day yeah it's the day job but here's the biggest issue i see for a lot of hr people is that sense that they feel like the poor relative they feel as if they're well i'm not a i'm not the sales force i'm not the i'm not generating finances so i they often feel like they are you know we need we need to be at the table hr should be at the table and you've always been at the table and if you're not you will be in about a week when they realize that oh he this ross supposed to be at the table so just your thoughts on you know what hr really is about i'd really like to hear that yeah okay well i guess i don't worry about being at the top table which is is probably the first thing to say i think i think you have to you have to earn the right hr has to earn the right to sit at the at the top table and you know i don't even think that that no that doesn't mean being a statutory director of a business it what that means for me is that is that the senior team you know i will lean on you for for guidance and advice and and opinion um when when they need it and and you know most of the time that that's probably often behind behind closed doors rather than perhaps in in board meetings where there's a there's a big big you know presence of of people it's um for me hr is about the the difference we make in the business and our credibility comes from from what we can do with and for people to get the most the most out of them um it's it's absolutely about understanding what makes people tick um what makes people want to come to work every day what makes them love the jobs that they do and will go the extra mile for us um you know every single day um it's i yeah the law is there it's it's a i wouldn't ever describe it as a lever um i think most of the time throughout my career i find ways of trying to avoid the law rather than rather than quoting it to uh to people as being a as being a blocker we we're in a we're in a country that is normally fairly compliant um that's the british way is that we there is a there is a law and we we will try to follow it as best we can and actually you know i think most people understand that you know the the art of of hr is is how we um you know work within that framework but continue to deliver great stuff for for our for our business and and help our leadership and management understand the people and how to get the best out of them and um you know sometimes sometimes the ideas that we have and sometimes the conversations that we have you know take months and years really for for it to have an effect in in the business and you know i i you know i've had conversations with people in the past and you know we've had the the nods coming from the other side of the table and and six months later it's been fed back to me as their greatest idea and i and i go fantastic you know it's that's wonderful let's let's get on with it um and that's absolutely fine and i know some of my colleagues in the profession you know i absolutely are in the same same space and but but equally a lot um you know or not and um i guess it's horses for courses the sectors are different people are different um you know at the end of the day you've got to find your niche about about what you know where you can where you can make a difference and and i guess you know for me it's always been and and i probably go back to um learnings very early on is is how how do you do you get that autonomy for people that they feel as though they've got you know a say in the way they they do their job that they can control what they do and and they're adding adding good value is is autonomy and and people people generally want to be great at what they do so you know how can i make how can i make god be the the greatest leadership guru that um that has ever been in furniture might be a bit of a challenge but um but you know generally it's it's about it's about that mastery and helping people be just just amazing and and that they understand so so i guess if i was to sum that something up it's around that autonomy mastery and purpose piece that you know that's that's what we've got to focus on that they're the things that make people want to come and work for for your business and they want to go the extra mile every day and and nail it and um and also to leave a bit of themselves and to to share you know all of all of that that they bring to the business with the people that are coming up um and that they're working with and uh you know i can't remember who's who said it i'm terrible at names which is normally an hr thing you you deal with people but can't really remember names but you know i can't remember who it was it said you know you get you get to the top and you you've got to remember to send the elevator down for the people at the bottom and and that's you know absolutely right and i guess the the the joy of my job and the joy of being as i guess a senior in the role as as i am is uh i i've been able to choose my teams um i've got great people uh i think there's a there's probably a skill in that is choosing the best people i can afford um and enabling them to to be able to to do what they enjoy doing as well and and deliver and helping people coming up with the chain really and make sure that there is a sustainable uh you know resilient uh team that that comes through behind me as well so i've got quite a few organizations that i deal with that are private equity based they are very often some of them are startups and there's a few um younger hr i'm going to say managers they're not directors because the company isn't of that size and they often will say to me you know um as the company grows i i want to stop being just a service provider and i'm not at the top table because when we started there was 10 of us 15 of us 20 of us whatever it is so i was you know you know i was kind of the provision of hr we're getting bigger and bigger uh but i'm i'm still seen as that at that level and i wonder if there's um and there's you know a council from you that says well of course you can always go somewhere else and reinvent yourself but if you're going to do it in your own space as an organization gets bigger or maybe somebody like yourself who turns up and there are certain players in the business who don't want to let go of their span of control even if you are as good as you say you are how do you what's the council or the narrative for you about getting people to shift their perspective on what that role is because some will not know because they won't have experienced it but some will know and they just don't want to let go yeah yeah well i i think i think what you've got to say is that every single role and every single person is is different aren't they and i and that the joy of this job is that you know i i work on a with an ops board at group level that's got uh 12 people on it and they're all very very different and they they will all have a perception of me which is very different from from individual to individual and and some of them you know will come to me uh for technical advice or for legal advice others others will have you know a good a good cry on the shoulder every every now and again and they take counselling and that's and that's wonderful and and i guess you know i've just come to the position where i i'm comfortable with that i don't need to have the same relationship with everyone what what i need to do is to be able to be for each of those people in the senior senior team as with my team um the thing that they need at that point in time and i and i take like you know what i take from that is that i'm making a difference to to to them you know they will be i i want to make them better than they are today um you know i want to get them to it to a different place if that means collectively the business moves to a different better place then then that's you know amazing as well but you know it's i think i think it's you know i i've heard you you know you talk about the shadow shadow where he cast and you know that absolutely is is an important perspective for me is that you know that the values of this business and my personal set of values are what i hold dearly to me and and i i want to you know see people or people see me as living those values day in day out and um and you know trying to create those relationships which which do build the business i guess what i would say to people who um who are you know right at the start of their career and are probably managers today is you know inevitably changing job is probably a reality um you know you are in this place where you know i remember when i sort of left um the the shipyards and um you know they they saw me the same 18 year old uh that started on that day who knew nothing um and probably wore honorable coloured ties and with horrible colored church and you know that's that's the perception they have and it's often is framed around your your initial meeting with that individual i mean you could have moved on as i did six years and i've gained loads of experience and i'm a much different person but they still see the one that they they have that first impression of and you've got to you've got to either redress that that position and have you know one of those conversations where you just go well you know i'm different and i'm i'm better and i'm bigger and i can do more things for you and if they are the right sort of people they will go yes you're right um now let's give you that opportunity now you know sometimes you have to have that conversation sometimes people see that for themselves and we'll come to you but i think you're just going to be really self-aware of of what you want to get out of of your career and where you want to be and and be in a space where what you're doing is is adding real value to you and not really worry about um what people's perception of you might be whether you've got a statutory directorship whether whether the bank balance is x as opposed to why um you know it it i do the job i do because i love doing it um i do the job i do here because i make a difference and if and if that works for me then then i'm really happy with where i am um and i always say to people you know you need to get in the same place you need to get in a position where you where you're you're comfortable if you're not happy with it change it and often that is just having a conversation with people sometimes it's about changing job um but you know you've got to work it out for yourself really and take some really brave decisions every every now and again um you know which which will take you on a different on a different path there there isn't um there isn't a path set out in stone which everybody needs to take and that's that's the joy of this job is that every single one of us that operates in this this field is different um as everyone else in our business is is different and uh you know it's got to work for you i'll buy into that that's um i think that's it i think there are just moments where if you think you are ready to add value and do more then you have to have the conversation about that and you're right you know it might be well what would you need to let go do you believe that i can add that value and if you do great and if you don't then this may not be the place for me and uh you know so the stuff of life yeah you gotta you gotta move forward yeah so yeah absolutely you have to keep moving forward i i think i think what i would what i would say uh guy is that you know i i very clearly have had in my mind um an ever evolving place i wanted to be yeah um you know but when i before i got hr director's role um you know when i got an hrd's role and i was 28. um you know i wanted to be an hr director and not my own team by the time i was 30. um and that that been it everything had been striving to walk towards that um i achieved that 28 and then it's like great where do i go now i know you have to reset you have to reset that and go where am i going now where am i going now well you know i've been i've been gifted with working for some amazing people um and and you know that's throughout my career whether it be at camellards at vinci several people you know um and and again a m group i you know i work with some amazing people um but i don't ever expect them um to come and knock on my door and say to me yeah you you're fantastic let's let's give you another job and and double your your salary it's about me it's about me and where i want to be um and um you know you have to go out and kick down some doors every now and again and tell people that um you know i can do that i can deliver that for you i can i can do i can operate in a different arena i can operate in a different way i can give you those results that you want um and um you know for me um and it might just be luck but for for me a lot of those a lot of those uh brave movements have turned out to uh to be beneficial um and i have gone on and done more and got you know wider experience and a broader um perspective on on things and and it and it's been it's been a great help um but uh yeah for anyone coming up you know it's don't wait don't wait um you know there is this balance isn't it between knowing you've got enough experience to be able to succeed in your ambitions um but you know don't don't let anybody tell you you're never good enough uh you know you can you can change that go out read the book read the book go out and read the book talk to people um watch your podcast and you can you can make yourself better every every single day and you know i think that's uh we have that obligation on ourselves to to change ourselves every day and and take the opportunities that come come around so listen um yeah i could do this for another 12 hours with you um which is which is always my problem but uh just to bring us up to date with what you know uh and probably more of a a a kind of a sense of things as an organization 10 000 people you know plus you know almost the same again you know in that associate sort of uh subspace and you know there was pre-covered there was covid and then there was that kind of um because your cluster's an essential service right um is that right so yeah keeping the water going and all that kind of stuff just what has been you know if you kind of reflect because you know i remember asking you at the time how are things going and you went dude i'm in it i'm in it now see ya i'm kind of busy which made a lot of sense and it's almost you know with a little bit of i know we're still going through things but it's settled what has been that you know on reflection the big challenge of that period of holy schmoly this thing's happening what does it mean and all that is there a kind of i think the thing that has that i've really pulled on the most or the thing that i've had to bring to the party the most to make that work and to steer the ship that i'm supposed to be steering um what does that mean or or you know what does that feel like it you've had to do well i think you know you're right it it it was um a shock you know march march came um all of us suddenly in many respects to us that we suddenly needed to do things different um you know at one point we had three and a half thousand people on furlough um we had lots of people working from home um i i think i think the thing that the business needed at the time um and you know we were not clever here in hr for being able to do this anybody could have done this but but what we were was here um and we we stayed here um now you know by chance we happen to sit in the offices that we have here in stevenage but it didn't really matter physically where we sat but we were here for the business um at times when actually the distractions that were around about you know can i go out can i go shopping can i can we we still put people to work can we go in people's homes all that stuff was going on and i think what we created here was a bit of an anchor of of reality and what we thought the time was really good solid advice and guidance and you know the we reduced our numbers uh operating numbers here in hr to a very small number and became you know as best as we could experts in what was coming out of government overnight so that we we became that anchor for the for the business and um you know i i don't need to say this because the business has said it to us but at times when um there was not a lot of other guidance uh going on actually you know the absolutely common sense uh let's deal with this as as we as we need to do on a day-by-day basis and make sure we keep as many people in the field and keep keeping as normal as as we possibly can was probably the thing that that kept us going um as a as a function b as a business but see as individuals um you know we we were there for people um and um and the business has remained there for people it it's done uh you know you could not have asked any more of this business in terms of the way that it's paid its people you know more than way more than the government wanted you know offered offered us in terms of reimbursement um we've looked after our people and um you know that i know will will pay dividends for us in in the future but um you know i you know i look back on six months and you know are we are we better are we better for covid are we better for the experience well i think i think you have to be you don't go through an experience like that and come out the other side and whinge about it um you know we we've learned a lot things we we've learned that our people can operate in a more autonomous way um we we know that they can follow the rules um we know that they are there for our customers and for our uh for our you know customers customers they've been there to support the general public and the number of instances where you know we can we can quote that our people have gone you know beyond way beyond the the extra mile to support our clients and and their customers is numerous and and and it's great to see but you know we there will be a legacy of of kobe which is also very difficult for us to manage we we we hear every day of the issues around mental health uh being you know a more difficult situation for us and that's true um you know we we we have more uh situations and cases that we were helping people with today than than we were pre-covered um some of that i think is because people feel able to talk more than perhaps they did pre-covered it perhaps has been a watershed in that sharing of uh of problems and issues and that you know in that respect that's that's great um but the isolation that people feel and the challenge that they've had been working from home has has made us work in in different ways and uh you know that that has created you know scars for people as well so yeah i i think you know i do look on it as a positive experience i think there are still challenges and i think there are still things for us to achieve to before we can say that we've come out the other side and and we're better for it but uh yeah i think you know the one thing that we've we've done as an hr function is is to still be here um and um you know i i know that when i read uh the the the hr material and people management material um that is out there that that has has been an issue for some businesses as well so yeah proud of the fact that we've been able to um to be there for the business and and so that it has been able to carry on doing the great work that it does um and our people whether they may be in the field you know uh laying pipes in the ground or whether they're in the offices are just uh yeah amazing people great people so listen colin time um has ticked um amazingly i don't know exactly how long but maybe an hour but it's um we've been chatting away and you know that um well i'll keep going but i'm gonna stop there might be a phase two so i'm just gonna say thank you so much for coming on this episode uh i have uh apart from the we've now mastered the delay i think of waiting for each other to stop so uh but it's been it's been a joy right now i love talking to you i love hearing what you've got to say i think you epitomize because i have that spectrum i get to work across multiple businesses over x amounts of time and you are for me and you know i'm going to say it in a public space you are that absolutely epitome of somebody who understands hr understands the commercials understands the balance between doing a job and adding value and and i think i've seen you play the short game as in that needs to be done i've seen you play the long game which well hold on let's just sow the seed and let's see where that goes but you've always you've always i think demonstrated that if i'm saying i'm going to do something then by hook or by flipping crook it's going to happen and you know there's ebbs and blows with that yeah exactly and i and i've seen that probably sometimes to your detriment where i've said you know hey just yeah but i get it and i've respected that massively and uh so listen i'm just going to say thank you for being on this episode and stay on for a few moments after i've stopped it's been a pleasure thanks guy fantastic