Major General (Rtd) Paul Nanson

Major General Paul Nanson CB CBE (Retired) has recently left the British Army officer he served as Commandant of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and was Director Recruiting and Initial Training Command.

Paul was commissioned into the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. He became commanding officer of the 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in 2006 and was deployed to Iraq.

Paul went on to be chief of staff for 1st (United Kingdom) Armoured Division in Germany in 2008, commander of the 7th Armoured Brigade in March 2011 and Director (Army) at the Joint Services Command and Staff College in April 2014.

After that he became Commandant of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in September 2015.

He was given the additional appointment of General Officer Commanding Recruiting and Initial Training Command in 2018, a post which he has continued in after finishing his 5 year term at the Royal Military academy, Sandhurst as commandant.

Paul is now a consultant and focusing on leadership development and in particular enabling youth.

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Transcript

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well on that note let's let's get going um as time sort of uh ticks ticks along so um paul welcome to the inaugural zoom recording podcast uh leadership bytes you're my first um explorer into this new medium for me so i've done the normal podcast but great to have you on great to see you guys thanks for having me and we did have a go at this before uh and due to some digital do-dari we decided to do it a different way yeah mainly mainly my lack of i.t skills i suspect but there you go yeah i think it was when the truck was backing up in the background when i went right i'm out we're gonna see many others in the background or something wasn't it it was ducks it was it was a woodpecker i think at one point so the only thing i'm worried about now is i've still got the dog in here i can't get rid of her but she hopefully she'll be quiet but i think that's fine i think that's absolutely fine so listen we know each other from sort of past conversations and i would just uh just like to get just from you initially what is paul nansen known for which is always that great statement but if people do know you or they don't know you what would they be understanding about who you are and what you've been doing before you get we get into where you are and all that kind of stuff yeah sure so i i mean i suppose really i'm i i joined the army very long time ago joined the honor from school so i've spent 34 years uh in the military in the army um come come with santos as an officer uh cadet uh so i've been commissioned and i went through my career going up through the ranks and was very fortunate to finish off my time in the army by being the commandant of the of santos the royal manchester academy sanders which i did for five years and at the same time i was director leadership for the army so in terms of my leadership credentials it's really about you know a full a full and varied career in the army and the last bit of which i suppose focused in on leadership and particularly uh looking at developing leaders with an eye on youngsters coming through sanders but also through life leadership development for the uh for the army a bit large so that's um you know that's a that's a status role i think you know that that kind of holding holding that position and just the name sandhurst itself and and being in that uh that lead role is he's quite a powerful statement and uh i know you've got a book as well that uh relates to that um period of time um so it might be good just to kind of quickly talk about that and and uh just if people want to look it up um just what's it called and what's it what's in it because i know that covers some of that period of time yeah we we um we wrote a book i say week because it was a it was a joint effort um it's a it's a it's a relatively long story because so so penguin came to to have a chat with me uh a couple of years ago and said look you're about to book on leadership and i was still serving at the time so it's not not that easy to be able to whilst you're still serving so i spoke to the army and we decided that it would be a good time to do something on leadership but with a sandhurst bent on it and therefore you know because we're trying to do we were trying to do some stuff with sandhurst um because of of recruiting and getting more youngsters in there so the book was there was three reasons for the book really one was to show off what we do there because we're very proud of what happens at santos amazing place secondly um to dispel some of the myths about the place because you know those who haven't been there those who perhaps read the press get that view that it's all about posh people and you know to go to sanders you've got to have the uh been to the right school right university come from the right family and of course nothing like nothing to do with that at all it's all about potential it's all about leadership potential and then the third thing was that you know we we value hugely our foundation that we get at santos in terms of our leadership development you know the santos sets us up brilliantly for you know our military careers and we go off and do these amazing things around the world we always look back to our our start at sandhurst and we thought you know hang on a minute would that translate into the civilian world would that translate into life skills so we wrote the book it's called stand up straight and it's about you know translating some of those life lessons leadership lessons that we learned at stem test into something that that people in in civilian world can can use as well i hope and i find it you know we were just talking about accessibility in books actually just before we came online and how some require some real effort to you know you got to sit down with your notepad and you know you're going to make your way through them and it's a it's a very digestible book i think and and easily accessible with kind of the the kind of points that in some respects might seem a little bit i wouldn't say simplistic but quasi-obvious until you actually think about it and actually realize that it's quite foundational and i don't know if you have any examples of something there but you go you know might sound simple but actually if you if you think about it you know this is the impact that it can have yeah yes i mean it's it's easy to read i mean my english teacher was watching this um you know he'd probably say that i'm not surprised given my my ability to write but you're right it was it was meant to be accessible and i think going to what you just said then for example what what we take as um you know in the army we take as as as red is probably when you explain it it is it is it is very easy to understand there is a very good reason behind it and does it translate into the swimming world yeah of course it does so for example you know we have we have a saying take a knee uh which has got other connotations now i know with with what's going on the moment but for us take a knee means you know physically getting yourself if you're a leader physically getting yourself when something goes bang physically getting yourself out of danger quickly uh getting in getting behind cover you know let the rest of your team deal with what's going on because you've got to just take a pause and think about what you're going to do next and you know don't don't make a decision in the heat of the moment think through the consequences because you're dealing with people's lives just take a time out and and i think you know you can relate that to civilian world of course you can particularly in this current crisis we're all involved you know where you know the unknown the uncertain people making decisions every day well actually this sort of phonetics pace of life at the moment actually just taking a few minutes just to think through a decision you're about to make is a tip and i think that's something that i mean we'll you know this isn't always a linear conversation but i'm i'm i'm really intrigued about because you've moved away from the military space now yeah so be great just to kind of get a sense of just what it is that you're putting some energy and focus into and and really the understanding may be of that spectrum that working or connecting with you brings because there's the well if you just given there you know the the observation that hey listen this may not sound like it's rocket science but actually if you really think about it you know that's what executives need to do all the way to maybe some of the more in-depth um maybe investments of time with you so where's your energy and your focus now paul just be great to get a line of sight on that maybe before we go back in history a little bit yeah sure i mean i i've only recently left the army i left um uh sort of in the summer uh and i and i said to you before we started this you know i've been i've been sort of casting casting a few uh lines out to try and see what i know i want to try and set up a portfolio of various things but if you ask me what my passion is i mean i want to stay in the leadership development field i i i love that and i think that's where my my strengths lie and as i said to you before i think if you were to ask me what sort of what part of leadership development it would be people call it now next generation leadership it's looking at those people who are coming you know not not the not the the old and bold the people who are pretty set in their ways because they've got to where they've got to and therefore they you know they are leaders is the ones just starting out on their journey who probably need a bit of help probably a bit of guidance in terms of how they develop themselves as leaders because quite a lot of people out there assume leadership um rather than actually uh you know learn it and therefore i think that's where i could uh i could add some value based on my experience and also you know as we've just been talking about you know the army is very good at that the army's very good at firstly selecting us based on our leadership potential but then ensuring that it is a journey that you do get that amazing foundation whether it's sandhurst or whatever it may be but then carry on the journey and making sure that as you go to the next level or you go to the next role or the next operation you are given that leadership development to make sure you're as well prepared as possible for what you're going to face so the kind of touch points with you if i was listening to this or watching this and saying wow you know what can i call on paul to do uh or what would i want to go and talk to paul about um are we talking keynotes and consultation or one-to-one coaching all of the above initially if somebody if it resonated what would what would people reach out to you for yeah i mean a bit a bit of everything really i'm i'm i'm i'm a coach so i think i i like coaching uh advising mentoring guiding you know uh i do a bit of speaking as well i talk about uh leading leading in in difficult environments uh team team performance um so speaking uh but really development leadership development is probably where i'd like to be mostly and that's that's about whether it's individual or team uh you know how how do we tailor our program how do we tailor a development program for you know your individual team needs yeah okay so i'm going to do a bit of a dive back which is you know you we see the man before us you know and obviously there's a future ahead but you know you you get to where you are very often through either a straight road or a very wiggly path you know the more and more i i talk to people and it'd be great maybe just to have that potted history that said you know i was born and then you know in a relatively kind of accelerated you know journey version of myself this is how i ended up there um and and maybe yeah i'd love to hear that uh well i was born uh in the north north of england i come from lancashire a place called ormskirk i pretty pretty normal normal childhood i i suppose but from a very early age i think i wanted to be a soldier and it's um you know people want to be astronauts and people want to be trained drivers and i i couldn't i could just remember wanted to be a soldier and i think there were many influences on that mainly uh my um my neighbors where i lived particularly my my next-door neighbor he had served in the second world war his sons his sons had uh were both going through santos when i was you know little things so i i'm sort of brought up with them having that experience and so and then i went to school joined the cadets and so in terms of my my sort of journey to to the army it was from a very early age and my my mum and dad supported me um blessed their hearts and uh i wanted to be an officer and so i went through the whole process of selection and eventually was lucky enough to to get to scientists and from there i didn't go to university i went straight from school into into the army it was more common in those days to do that quite a lot of us there were non-graduates and therefore um you know i think 20 when i when i when i joined when i eventually got there um and then joined an infantry battalion fuselage and and really so by the time i got into the time 1986 so it was the back end of the cold war if you can remember the cold war a hell of a thing to say at the back end of the cold war those are the days you see 86 so yeah so it's all about um you know the soviet threat we were stationed out in germany and we were we were focused on that and that's what we trained for that's what we were expecting although we were all hoping it would never happen obviously and and our exercises are our deployments were all based on on that threat and then suddenly you know back end of 1990 uh the first golf war came along and we went out there and if you look back at the history from then on really it's it's just you know we bounce from from one operation to another and into bosnia and then um kosovo and then it was iraq and then afghanistan it was it's been quite a busy busy years in terms of operations so it was a it was a i mean i've had a cracking time i really enjoyed it challenging and rewarding equal measures and you know i changed roles i did lots of different things within the army but i suppose was always always that that leadership dimension you know i i was lucky enough as i went through through my military career obviously going up in rank and going into different roles i was given that opportunity to to lead in many different environments albeit mainly military environments but having that um you know different exposure to difficult situations different environments crisis whatever you want to call it and therefore that's where i that's where i learnt my my business and when you said you know i wanted to be an officer yeah that's an interest i mean i understand wanted to join the army i can i can i can see that but then there's the wanting to be an officer do you remember when you almost decided or was that you know no i just always wanted to be one or what because joining army is one thing but being an officer that's that's a that's another step as well i think it was and this sounds a bit this sounds a bit cheesy but i think it was that those sort of those neighbors that i saw you know these two young men who were going to be they were going to santos and i i lived that with them and it just struck a chord with me that uh you know and then at school i'll be honest with you at school it was uh an option that was sort of sort of pushed pushed towards me you know they said an officer and the more i looked at it the more the more i liked the idea of having that responsibility having that kudos i suppose as well there's a certain amount of attraction of being an officer um and being an infantry officer in my in my case you know that's that was the that was the icing on the cake so yeah i can't tell exactly when it happened but through sort of a natural journey and i suppose there was a bit of of wanting to be a leader as well i suppose yeah i'm intrigued by that and you talked about that helping talent but those things that imprint on you so i've been a lifelong martial artist and i don't remember exactly when but probably a combination of being a bit bullied at school watching some jackie chan movies i don't know what it was but that that kind of you know i'm going to learn martial arts you know yeah you know when i learned three and you go isn't one enough for you and apparently not you know i don't know where it comes from but i need more belts i need more belts you know but you know part because i wanted to be strong and i didn't want to be bullied part because i then fell in love with the the whole process of it and there's all sorts of things but there's that youthful imprinting yeah that i'm very intrigued about as i look into society right now and at all levels and especially with the context that we're in which is well when are you going away matt if you're 16 17 years old you um what what what do you look at and i look at my eight-year-old and my six-year-old and you know if they said what you know dad you know what should i be when i grow up i'm like but there's something about the exposure to things that maybe you know i don't know maybe i should say you know meet a vet you know maybe they might want to be one you know there is something about that isn't that how we get the youth to experience a set of experiences that one of them hooks them i guess yeah yeah no it's really it's really interesting one thing i didn't mention about about my my youth was that you know my my entertainment was was television or or or comics yeah you know and if i said to you know if my if my 15 year old walked in now he'd look at me blankly if i said comic but uh but comics for me i you know got it once a week uh and for me the comic i got was a thing called the victor and it was about um you know it was based about war stories and and of course then it was different different generation you know the war wasn't that far away yeah they were still talking about that and so i i grew up on on that kids kids now um i mean they're so well connected aren't they and they can they can see everything yeah and therefore probably there's so much so much choice there you're absolutely right how to focus in on on specifically what you want to do or what you know what flicks your switch is probably a bit more difficult i don't know not more difficult it's the wrong word but it's more well it's just more choice isn't it yeah the reason i think as a parent you know looking at an eight-year-old who you know when he was three he walked in and he went up to the tv and went like that nothing happened i don't know what three four what's this part of crap yeah because everything else i touch does that work he's as you say his relationship with technology and uh his access to the world is one that i've i'm very interested as to that me not curtailing his aspirations or their aspirations just because it's out of my line of sight of understanding yeah and um that's something i think i'm i'm really recognizing and the relationship with even with academics and and and the uh no i think it's google is it that have put some courses online that are basically doing the six-month programs that basically going we don't need you to have done x amount of qualifications at university we need you to have passed that yeah yeah and that shifting relationship with what's going to be credible and what's actually going to be is a university degree in english well if they're going to be an english teacher but yeah almost who cares and so i've got to wrap my head around you know that kind of stuff i guess as well but that'll come to me as i get more and more fearful as he gets older it's great really and the other thing is is i'm in my my um henry's going going through his uh gcses at the moment so he's great next year but of course he's the generation that's saying you know if i why do i need to why do i need to do biology you know if i'm not i mean i don't want to do biology university i don't see myself as a doctor for example so yeah why why do i need to do french why do i need to think they want they they want to they aren't they're very focused they're very focused in terms of you know their needs what they think their needs are and therefore they want to focus in on what's the importance i always feel that they could do a degree at starting at 15. i've almost come to that as in that's what i'm interested in dad can't i just do that and yeah i i i don't i don't know why not in some respects but there is that you know it's it's something i've definitely got to wrap my head around but at 15 as well there's that sort of sense of uh immediacy of things are you know that's that's that growing up age isn't it you know a lot of immediate life is upon you let me just use a really good word because going back to your your youngster and the swiping the tv you know they want an answer now then they want to press something and get an answer uh and if you say well you know it's foundation and you know you build you up in over three years they'll go why can't i do it in six months why can't i do it tomorrow i mean that's the way they are in this different generation generation this is fascinating my little boy watched uh i don't even have a tv license because it's netflix it's amazon prime and uh some sky so he he watches uh a tv program at somebody's house and then can we watch the next one no what do you mean no anyway we've got to we've got to wait till next week yeah literally his mind nearly imploded yeah he went what do you mean wait till next week well the next episode will be out next week and when we left the house he was brilliant he's eight he's really respectful he went oh okay and he walked out of the house he went so you know that's and he look he got the word terrestrial tv oh wait yeah he said i'm never doing that again ever because if he can't stream it all now he's not interested and his relationship with knowing things is of course he remembers things but he knows how to pick up the phone he hits the microphone and just asks google yeah so in my day well guy you won't be carrying an encyclopedia in your back pocket will you well apparently i will be yeah and so my my eight-year-old relationship with as you say the immediacy and expectation of things yeah is uh is is quite phenomenal so uh we'll be able to hear in eight years time we'll have a beer in 10 years time guy and uh he'll be working for the bbc yeah exactly exactly the what yeah but um so listen uh hopping back to um you know a career you know i remember and this isn't about me being interviewed so all spoken to so you know my stories get parked in that sense but i you know we've all got those touch points of that really resonated with me that that was the i that individual said that one thing and it and it's stuck and i just wondered if you could share any key moments that were maybe those stepping stones or those realizations around leadership about maybe understanding the the depth of it's a responsibility not a role or just when you had a little bit leap in your own learning where you went i remember that it was that conversation or that moment where i something clicked and i i moved forward on my understanding of it i don't know if you have anything like that that you could share that i personally would love to listen to i mean i've had lots of lots of touch points and obviously i've i've been thinking about it probably more you than more recently because i left and therefore looking back on my career but i think the first the first one for me the first one really was um in my selection to get to sanses because i failed i failed the first time i went i went to the rightfully um recruiting board um rcb regular commissions board it was cool in those days on the off selection board now but if you go to a place called westbury and you do you do have effectively a three-day job interview i suppose test to to see whether you're of the right stuff to be an army officer and and to be trained as an army officer so i went down and and um you know pretty confident that i was going to be you know done all the right sort of things and they said nah you're not you're not for us mate and they said you know they gave in venice they said this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong it's all about character it's all about confidence it's all about maturity and they said go away and sort yourself out and you have one more go you can come back in in not less than a year's time and um if you sort yourself out you'll have a little lucky and that was quite uh for i think i was 17 or 18 at the time and that's that's quite a that's quite a golfing moment because i'm trying to think there's not many times in your life before that where somebody has turned around to you and said actually we don't think you are of the right stuff i mean you do exams and all that sort of thing but this is this is about you as a person um so that and that made me think about myself and maybe think about um you know character maybe think about confidence maybe think about all those things subsequently i realize it's hugely important if you're going to be a leader it doesn't matter you're going to be a leader in the military or wherever you're going to be you know it's about you and therefore you've got to take real responsibility for that uh and i did go away and i did i did genuinely try and work hard on those things as they said and i took myself off around the world to do stuff and and came back and and obviously made it the second time through so as a great learning point you know coming back from failure um picking yourself up dusting yourself off um you know that was that was a great life lesson and one that continued at sandhurst and beyond you know the army's very good at you know making sure that you do fail because that's where you genuinely learn but also that's also where you your character comes out you know whether you can um you know pick yourself up and tighten your chin strap as you say in the book and and get back in the fight so that was my first one and i love that there's two things for me there as again i've mentioned this to you before but that martial art side of things is all the best martial artists have lost a lot they have continually been or they put themselves into situations where they're with people that are better than they are so they're continually losing so they get better and it is that kind of conscious recognition that you to be a winner you've got to lose a lot as well yeah and that confidence with it so when you say you went and traveled i'm i'm really interested also in that kind of dual need for a person to develop themselves outside of the role that they're in yeah and that almost yeah you can learn process and you can learn role etc but actually the you bit probably just being in a job won't be enough unless you've got a particularly expansive role that allows you to go off you know around the world and have these massive sets of experiences but particularly for a civilian i think who may not be in those you know and you're off to this country tomorrow and that country you know two years later where those opportunities are thrust upon people i often see people that have the role or the the it's outgrown them but it hasn't outgrown them because of their knowledge of the environment or the process it's just that they're not seen to be of that level yeah because they've been in situ for a quite a long time and they haven't really grown themselves outside of the role and i don't know if that's something that you recognize or or have seen yeah i think so i think the the i think it comes down to a culture doesn't it i think it comes down to a culture some organizations have it some individuals have it that there's a sort of constant constant um wanting to improve you know continuous professional development continuous leadership development whatever you want to call it but it's that understanding that it's if you're if you're an expert on widgets being an expert on widgets is great um whilst you are an expert on widgets but as soon as you you get to a certain level where someone says well it's not just about widgets anymore sunshine you've got to you've got to manage this part of the company um and it's more than widgets you've got other things to think about that's where you say you go hang on a minute uh i need a bit more than this and this goes to your point about you know what else need it's about it's about you whether you can inspire people whether you can reach outside the widgets to to understand the context of the rest of the organization if you can have the trust of people uh outside your level your area of expertise um you know all that sort of thing which does take work doesn't it it does take effort and as you say getting outside of yourself and looking back into your self-awareness and all that sort of thing your authenticity all that sort of thing it's putting yourselves into situations where you are going to be in some form of stretch and maybe even panic sometimes because and that may be something happened to you five years ago or ten years ago but you have this there is a part of your life where you met these difficulties and you maybe you're traveling the world and when you got there you know all your money got stolen yeah or maybe it doesn't matter because if you go and do things things are going to go wrong so there's something about just getting out into the world and doing stuff because then stuff will happen to you and the more you push yourself the more you're going to learn because the more stuff's going to happen to you and i think sometimes it's almost that simple you don't have to plan what's going to happen to you just put yourself out there and it will and i think i think the self-awareness thing as well is about um is learning from those those instances so so for example your your example there of going overseas and you go into a stressful situation where all your kick gets stolen and you know you have that moment of panic where you think what the hell am i going to do and then you gradually you know you gradually work through it and you'll eventually come through but then it's the the pause and the think and the reflect about well how did i overcome that and what if i'd taken that decision then rather than that decision would i've got there a bit quicker and therefore you're learning aren't you and therefore the next time you go into that crisis situation you will have a bit of muscle memory and you'll say do you know what i'm probably going to do it this way this time and i think that self-reflection so it's very easy to say on on a podcast isn't it but but i think that's that's what i think that's that's what you've got to get into i think if you really are wanting to learn from your you know your your leadership journey i think one of the big ones for me as well is the relationship with humor and that capacity to recognize the the humor in the situation and that not to be not professional yeah you know that that to almost be able to go god could this be any worse you know i mean could this be any more of a disaster blimey and then be and then have the human reaction and i'm very clear when i see environments or cultures where they don't allow the human response because it's unprofessional and then the ones that allow people to go with jesus right we're going to do but they allow that and i think people that have been out in the world and done or who are doing things as a side role to what they're doing or have done things in the past very often have got a relationship with humor because that was one of the things that stopped them losing their marbles or getting or getting through it so i think that i see that very much as a as a development thing so so any uh one more if we have it in the bag but another kind of a stepping stone experience that you know would be great for us to listen to um i suppose i suppose the next the next sort of big uh moment for me was the first time into a combat situation where you know the first time that you are i talk about at the beginning of the book you know the first time you you know it suddenly dawns on you that actually there you are uh 24 years old um responsible for you know 24 men as i was and you know you are going to lead them in a life and death situation so your decisions that you're going to make are going to affect them absolutely 100 and you know that that's that was a sort of that was another gulping moment where you know you have to you have to think through it you know and and um put yourself together and and get on with it and have the confidence in your own ability and the confidence in them um that you know you're gonna do this and it's a learning experience isn't it and and i i didn't i didn't make all the right decisions uh without a shadow of a doubt and i i probably made some bad decisions but um but we got through it and uh it was it was a learning experience and lots of things i learned i learned about myself i learned about my own resilience but i also learned to trust other people and and listen to other people as well and there were people in my team who were more experienced than me didn't have the same authority as me but they were more experienced than me and therefore you know why wouldn't i listen to them why wouldn't i take their advice why wouldn't i ask what they would do now uh and i think as long as that was that was that first time when i really valued the power of the team i think and the power of unlocking not only your own potential but everybody else's as well yeah that is a big thing that i i see that um that relationship with it's showing your vulnerability doesn't make you vulnerable you know being able to turn around and go i don't know how to do this but you've done this at least three times before yeah so i'm not losing my positional power by asking you and and that's something i think that as organizations become increasingly complex and people are moved into roles where then their area of expertise now doesn't enable them because actually what they're looking after is outside of their normal span of control or whatever that um be strong driver that that need to show control um there's a real maturity shift between being in control because you're the one with the answers and being the people being the person that people want to enable and it's okay that you don't have a clue yeah yeah absolutely that's a real growth moment i think i think i think also you've got to understand that if you are in a position of authority whether that's as a ceo or uh or a platoon command whatever it may be you still have the responsibility you can't you know you can you can't abrogate that so um and i think you know as we move i mean warfare has always been complex but it's getting more complicated and i think life's getting more complicated particularly at the moment if you look outside the door now it's you know deciding whether you're gonna go to the shops or not now is is a pretty complex decision isn't it but um you know the more and more times we face these wicked problems the more and more we have to rely on our teams to to help us out and i think the more and more we've got to educate our our team members that you know they have a role in this as well and therefore it's okay to put your hand up and say do you know what boss is a better way of doing this and actually if you if you if you trust me i can lead us through this bit of the problem yeah so follow me and actually if you're if you're a decent boss and and uh are humble enough you'll say okay johnny you've got this one over to you let's go and i think they're getting that psyche um it doesn't mean he's got responsibility you still hold the responsibility because you are the leader and you are the but but you may want to follow him because he at that point in time knows how to deal with this wicked problem that we're all facing does that make sense it totally does and that humbleness is interesting and that's definitely a factor and then for me there's something about fear as what i i'm doing a lot of coaching on at the moment is that i'm recognizing is that as people are put under more for the want of a bird a word more pressure more stress to achieve they tighten very often the controls because the timelines that they perceive that they have and the room for failure is decreasing therefore the response for a lot of people is to over manage and if i had longer with more resources i could give people the buffer to learn and to grow and to make a mistake and they would learn from it because that's how i got to the role that i'm in but as my as that decreases for me i over manage because of my fear yeah and the stress i see in people is when they realize that they're a good boss doing bad things yeah yeah because they don't want to manage like that but their anxiety for their own position means that they haven't stepped up to either pushing back or holding space or allowing trust yeah when they feel in jeopardy yeah and i guess is probably true probably everywhere in in every medium and every place and space but i do see that a lot it does it all boils back down to the t word doesn't it it all boils back down to trust yeah and i think i think the art of leading in this environment is is is understanding that in a team of four if you're responsible for a team of four there will be two there will be two of those team members who you can you know if you let them get on with it you give them the resources give them that give them the direct the intent they'll get on with it you haven't got to worry about them but there are probably two one that you just don't know and you just need to be a bit more directive perhaps with that one person but what you don't want to be directly with all of them you don't one size one size doesn't fit all and i think that's the problem at the moment is people are as you say becoming more directive and not giving not allowing people to have the freedoms that they need to be able to drive to be able to have initiative and to be able to um you know seize opportunities so paul i'm i'm i'm alert to time you know time is a cruel mistress as a colleague of mine often often says and um in the right circumstances i i can just keep talking to you until you eventually go go i have a life i need to leave and i'm just going to go so rather than run that risk so if people want to make contact with you and i'll leave the link in the description um if there is one but it is linked in the best way or what what's the best way of reaching out to you direct yeah i'm on i'm on i'm on linkedin that's probably the uh the best way to get the conversation going but be delighted to chat to anybody uh about particularly about leadership development and i think you know next generation leadership you know getting these boosters going and uh helping them find their fund their leadership journey well i'll leave a link in the description on the podcast to connect with you and paul nansen on linkedin is an easy one to find and locate so um just on that note you know maybe there'll be a round two you know as things move forward that'd be uh awesome if that's a possibility but uh are you working on anything else book wise or is there anything on the on the horizon that that's not secret squirrel that you can i i'm not i would like to do another book um uh yes i would like to do another book but nothing in the pipeline yet okay well i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna motivate you to do a second one so on that note paul thank you so much for um for joining and you know we'll we'll we'll speak to each other in a second when i press the stop button so yeah thank you very much thanks have you on guy real pleasure thank you you