In this episode of Leadership Bytes, Guy Bloom interviews Scott Greenberg about managing hourly workers.
They discuss the differences between hourly and salaried workers, the importance of adapting to different generations in the workplace, and the need for continuous improvement in leadership.
Scott shares insights from his book, Stop the Shift Show, which focuses on turning struggling hourly workers into a top-performing team.
He emphasizes the importance of understanding the emotional needs of employees and creating a positive work experience.
The conversation also touches on the 30-Second Leadership Coaching methodology and the role of employees in maintaining company culture. In this conversation, Scott Greenberg discusses the importance of mindset and building resilience in overcoming challenges.
He emphasizes the need to adapt to change and overcome fear and failure. Greenberg also highlights the significance of developing a growth mindset for personal and professional growth.
Takeaways
Chapters
00:00
Introduction and Choosing Interesting Guests
01:12
Scott's Book: Stop the Shift Show
02:01
The Differences Between Hourly and Salaried Workers
04:11
Misconceptions About Managing Hourly Workers
05:33
The Positive Frame of Reference for Managing Hourly Workers
07:15
Understanding the Mindset of Hourly Workers
09:35
Generational Differences and Individual Mindsets
10:54
Adapting to Different Generations in the Workplace
13:08
The Importance of Individuality in Managing Employees
14:00
Managing a Diverse Workforce
16:39
Adapting to Changing Workplace Dynamics
20:51
The Need for Continuous Improvement in Leadership
25:51
Creating a Positive Work Experience for Employees
26:21
Common Questions from Managers
28:41
The Role of Employees in Creating a Positive Work Environment
34:14
The 30-Second Leadership Coaching Methodology
36:15
The Importance of Diagnosing Employee Performance
40:08
Defining Culture and Behaviors in the Workplace
45:23
The Role of Employees in Maintaining Company Culture
46:06
Where to Find Scott Greenberg
02:30
The Importance of Mindset
10:15
Building Resilience
20:40
Adapting to Change
30:10
Ov
To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.
The link to everything CLICK HERE
UK: 07827 953814
Email: guybloom@livingbrave.com
Web: www.livingbrave.com
In this episode of Leadership Bytes, Guy Bloom interviews Scott Greenberg about managing hourly workers.
They discuss the differences between hourly and salaried workers, the importance of adapting to different generations in the workplace, and the need for continuous improvement in leadership.
Scott shares insights from his book, Stop the Shift Show, which focuses on turning struggling hourly workers into a top-performing team.
He emphasizes the importance of understanding the emotional needs of employees and creating a positive work experience.
The conversation also touches on the 30-Second Leadership Coaching methodology and the role of employees in maintaining company culture. In this conversation, Scott Greenberg discusses the importance of mindset and building resilience in overcoming challenges.
He emphasizes the need to adapt to change and overcome fear and failure. Greenberg also highlights the significance of developing a growth mindset for personal and professional growth.
Takeaways
Chapters
00:00
Introduction and Choosing Interesting Guests
01:12
Scott's Book: Stop the Shift Show
02:01
The Differences Between Hourly and Salaried Workers
04:11
Misconceptions About Managing Hourly Workers
05:33
The Positive Frame of Reference for Managing Hourly Workers
07:15
Understanding the Mindset of Hourly Workers
09:35
Generational Differences and Individual Mindsets
10:54
Adapting to Different Generations in the Workplace
13:08
The Importance of Individuality in Managing Employees
14:00
Managing a Diverse Workforce
16:39
Adapting to Changing Workplace Dynamics
20:51
The Need for Continuous Improvement in Leadership
25:51
Creating a Positive Work Experience for Employees
26:21
Common Questions from Managers
28:41
The Role of Employees in Creating a Positive Work Environment
34:14
The 30-Second Leadership Coaching Methodology
36:15
The Importance of Diagnosing Employee Performance
40:08
Defining Culture and Behaviors in the Workplace
45:23
The Role of Employees in Maintaining Company Culture
46:06
Where to Find Scott Greenberg
02:30
The Importance of Mindset
10:15
Building Resilience
20:40
Adapting to Change
30:10
Ov
To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.
The link to everything CLICK HERE
UK: 07827 953814
Email: guybloom@livingbrave.com
Web: www.livingbrave.com
Guy Bloom (00:00)
Scott. Fantastic to have you on this episode of Leadership Bytes. Welcome.
Scott Greenberg (00:05)
So glad to be here.
Guy Bloom (00:07)
Well, I always get excited about the people that I have on because I've now got to a position that when I first started doing podcasts, I was happy to have any bugger on. But now I've done 100 or 130, I get to actually choose people that seem genuinely interesting to me. So I clearly know who, I know, right? That's the best bugger, that's exactly right. So I clearly know who you are.
Scott Greenberg (00:26)
The best, the best fuckers.
Guy Bloom (00:34)
But you know, I just like this little introduction of, you know, if you're in a barbecue and somebody said, Hello, Scott, what do you do? How would you what would you say?
Scott Greenberg (00:44)
But if I don't want to talk to them, I say, I sell insurance. That usually ends the conversation. So I explain that I help leaders grow their business. And so I focus on the human side of the work they do, how they think, how they lead, and how they serve. And so that really translates to a lot of keynote speaking and workshops and writing that's all about helping people improve on the human side of the business they run.
Guy Bloom (00:47)
Bingo.
Now you have a book, so it'd be great just to get that, what it is and just give us a sense of its focus, which may be what you just said, but let's get that out in the open. Well, I want to talk about it.
Scott Greenberg (01:13)
Um.
Sure, well, Guy, I wasn't even going to mention it, but since you asked, OK, well, I just happened to have a copy of it right here. It actually officially comes out February 13th. It's called Stop the Shift Show. Turn your struggling hourly workers into a top performing team. So I've spent a great deal of time focusing on the world of hourly workers.
and how they are different from those earning salary. And for many people who have learned leadership, who have worked in white collar settings, when they have to start leading these workers, hourly workers, they really struggle. So this is a book about how to connect with this group and elevate their performance.
Guy Bloom (02:00)
Well, I think that's a focus I've never really thought about, to be honest with you. And that's one of the key reasons I wanted you on. I think about employees, I think about different levels in terms of their demographic, but I haven't really thought about it specifically with that sort of hourly perspective. So I guess my hopefully intelligently naive question is, why is it different?
Scott Greenberg (02:30)
Well, it's an interesting question that we ask all the time in other areas. We, you know, we look at the different demographics in the, the marketplace, right? Consumers, whether it's, you know, kids, 18 to 34, male, female, different regions. And we adapt to that, you know, different groups of people have different values, different needs, different desires. Well, the same is true in the workplace and people who are earning an hourly wage tend to be a bit younger. They tend to have fewer skills.
They're certainly getting less compensation. They have less stability. They have less opportunities to grow within that organization, which might mean less loyalty. They're more likely to be going to other jobs or going to school or having to revolve around other members of their family who have their own schedules. Their needs, their values, their lifestyles, their abilities are completely different than those in a white collar setting who have a reliable salary, predictable hours, opportunities for growth. And so what we would use to
you know, motivate and build culture and loyalty with one group isn't going to work necessarily with the other group. So just as we have to adapt in our marketing and adapt in the products and services we offer to the consumer marketplace, we need to adapt and, you know, change our strategies for the labor marketplace and for the specific group of people we are trying to lead. And as you mentioned, there is very little discussion out there about this group and how they're different. Most discussions about management. Most.
books and resources are about managing people in general. And I find that it's just not as effective taking the tactics that might work here and try to have them work here.
Guy Bloom (04:09)
Is there a sense that the Salaried, well they're both salaried, but the full-time employee rather than the hourly worker, is there a caricature here of one is easier to manage than the other? Or is there anything going on there that with your observation actually to look at it like that is the wrong way?
What do you think when you see that difference? Is there a caricature that people misinterpret or actually no, there is a truth that comes from that?
Scott Greenberg (04:42)
Well, I think there are certain perceptions and stereotypes that we have of each group, especially those people who work in an hourly setting might look at salary people as smarter, more talented, more stable, easier to work with. And then those who work at hourly, I think that most people would agree that the perception is that they're more difficult, they're harder to manage, there's less loyalty. And I think because of how they're managed, those things are true, but it doesn't have to be that way. That with better hiring,
with better management, you can actually get better performance out of them. And in my experience across the board when it comes to managing people at any level, when there are problems, most of the time it has more to do with the dynamic between management and employees than it does with just who the employees are and what they're capable of.
Guy Bloom (05:32)
So maybe bring that dynamic to life about either the mindset that might be infecting the relationship and potentially the way that people should be framing their thoughts.
Scott Greenberg (05:48)
I think the purpose of any manager, of any leader, is to elevate the people who they are leading, to elevate their skill set, to elevate their mindset, and to create a culture and environment where they can thrive. I think in a salary setting where people are working, you know, again, predictable, reliable hours, they know that there's opportunities for growth, perhaps they're more educated and they come with more of a skill set, more experience.
Well, these are people who are going to be more motivated by a company's mission and value statements who are self motivated. That's kind of why they got to the position that they're in. They see that there's growth that's there and they look at it, you know, at the company as sort of a home away from home. In an hourly setting, you might have a young person who's saving up for a summer trip or you might have someone who is just trying to, you know, make the rent, you know, but maybe it's a single mom. Their needs are.
completely different. And so, you know, it's a different mindset. They're feeling a lot less loyalty from the company. They're not thinking long term because what are the long term prospects when you're at a frozen yogurt shop? You know, there might be, but unless that's spelled out, unless there's a path to growth and real opportunity for career, why should they be more loyal? Why should they treat it like, you know, that like their owners, that kind of thing. And so we have to have more realistic expectations and use different kinds of tactics in order to win their loyalty.
Guy Bloom (07:14)
So what is the frame of reference that somebody should have if you're managing people in this space that you would say is the positive frame of reference?
Scott Greenberg (07:24)
I think that you have to go into it thinking that just like they are not entitled to anything, neither are you. Just because you're the boss, just because you're the employer, you shouldn't come in expecting them to come in great. Your job is to find people who have the qualifications as best as you can find them, but then to constantly elevate them and contribute to them and to facilitate a great work experience.
when they have a great customer experience. So the same is true with employees. The traditional model of, well, I'm the boss, therefore I get to talk to the employee however I want and order them around. And for every hour I pay them, I own them. With younger generations, that's just not gonna fly. Just because you pay them, you're not entitled to anything. They don't look at authority the same way. They're not necessarily gonna say, okay, please tell me what my hours are. You know, they need more flexibility and they're willing to live at home with their parents.
There's so many things that are different. We need to come in with more flexibility. And what that means is that we need to change. People have been saying kids these days for generations. The fact is many hourly workers are young. Their brains are still developing. We complained about millennials for decades, and now millennials are doing great in society and they're really functioning well in spite of all the things that we said about their screen addiction and helicopter parents and soccer trophies, that kind of thing.
We need to change our mindset to stop judging them and instead understand them. That's maybe the best frame of reference. It doesn't matter if we like them, dislike them, approve or disapprove, that's not what we should focus on. We need to focus on who are they, what are their values, what are their needs, and how can I adapt the way I manage them in order to meet those needs so that they will perform. And that doesn't mean that you're coddling to them or enabling them. You're doing the same thing for them that you would do for your customers. You're trying to understand them.
and then you adapt your environment to create a place where they're gonna thrive. And I have met so many businesses that are doing this successfully and are thriving with the help of young hourly workers.
Guy Bloom (09:34)
So I have a sense that some people see generations through the lens of the caricature, you know, the youth of today, whatever. And I think you're 100% right, you know, Elvis Presley came out and people, you know, went bananas and, you know, the youth of today watching this kind of, you know, everything's a challenge for the generation that went before in some respects. But then there's something which for me, when you look at generations, if you say them, they.
and you're painting them all with one brush, it's like saying the French are all like this and you go, what, all of them? You know, it's a too big a statement for too big a population. So would it be fair to say that every generation has a percentage of people in it that are, it's not really about the generation.
it's about the mindset that they've got. Some people don't want to play fair, they will look for reasons to sabotage, they will only be, they will be selfish. But is that generational or is that just, you know, for every human being that there is, there's a distribution curve and some will fall in love with the company at one end, others will be saboteurs and the majority in the middle, if you treat them with a bit of respect and show a bit of care, the chances are you'll get a lot out of them. Doesn't matter if they're 60, doesn't matter if they're 18.
Scott Greenberg (10:52)
I absolutely agree. It's funny, people are writing books and giving speeches about Generation Z and millennials. As you said, painting them with warm brush, right? But if you were to take other types of groups in society and do pretty much the same thing with the same intention, you'd be called a racist, you'd be called prejudiced, that kind of thing. For some reason.
We think if we combine this kind of group based on when they were born, that suddenly that is okay. And let's put morality and ethics aside and how horrible it is to be stereotyping, to be prejudiced. It's just laziness around that. Of just wanting to look at people by when they are born, as opposed to looking at them as individuals. But having said that, here's one generalization I will make. That...
And again, not all hourly workers are young, but they skew younger compared to those on salary that all young people are young, which means all young people, their brains are still developing till about age 25. So it might seem that they lack common sense when really their brain is still developing. And so if you have a younger workforce, that's kind of what you have to keep in mind that young people and for every generation have always been less competent, have always
had judgment that may not always have been best. That may have been a little bit flaky, but they mature and they grow and they learn. And if we can, as managers, as leaders, help facilitate that process in the workplace, well, it's gonna be a benefit to them, but it's gonna be a benefit to us because they will demonstrate more loyalty. They will mature on the job and do something better. And again, young people are coming in still using their amygdala and their middle brain, which is more emotionally driven.
More mature people are thinking with the prefrontal cortex, which is logic, reason, and problem solving. So managers need to come in with that to help compensate for their emotionally driven younger employees. So yeah, you're absolutely right. I don't think that, I think there's some value in looking at generations, but we don't wanna just look at our employees and only see them in those two dimensions. We need to see them as individuals to figure out what is that person's value system? What drives that person? What are this person's triggers?
so that we can customize our management for that person.
Guy Bloom (13:02)
you
I often wonder when I see, you know, I go into a McDonald's for example and there might be a group of 18 year olds but also a group of, I don't know what age they are, but 30 year olds, 40 year olds, 50 year olds. So whoever's managing that workforce has got a complete diagonal cut through
generations and ages. And you're right, the motivations might be I'm saving up to go on holiday versus, you know, it fits in fantastically with the kids through to... it doesn't almost matter why while they're there. So I wonder, as a manager of probably a relatively transitional workforce sometimes, there'll be the core maybe that stay, then there'll be the transitioning
Yes, but isn't actually there are just some core truths about human beings that if I come at everybody in a certain way, yes there'll be then the independent needs of the individual that may or may not have something going on, but the truth is I can capture most people most of the time by
coming at most people in a manner that doesn't mean it doesn't matter if you're 60, it doesn't matter if you're 20. The truth is if you handle people through this lens the chances are you're going to capture their commitment and their hearts and minds and I just wonder what you think about that Scott.
Scott Greenberg (14:39)
I agree. I think all of these things are data points. And I'll share a quick story. So for more than 10 years, I owned multiple retail franchises with edible arrangements. We make you know, floral arrangements out of fresh fruit. I had employees of different generations and I had an incident where there is one gentleman in his early 60s. And he cut, we would have like heart shaped pineapple wedges we'd put in our arrangements. And he was cutting a bunch of them. And he took one and he handed one.
to a female employee in her young 20s and just smiled. So she came to me, this very young employee, and she felt that it was a sexual advance. Now, it could have been, but I also know that this guy in his 60s, it reminded me of my dad, who kind of had this way about him, he was very charming. Some might call it flirtatious, but that was just sort of his way of sort of being. And so I had to take it seriously. I'd had that conversation with both of them, and because she felt that way,
I did decide to write him up, but was he necessarily being inappropriate or that kind of thing? I had to take his generation into consideration. Again, he reminded me of my dad at a time where you could meet a woman and say, wow, you have very pretty hair. And it was coming from a more innocent place at that time. But ultimately, all of us, if we are out in society, our job is to behave in a way that's consistent with today's values. Well, as we get older, that gets more difficult, right?
There's context there for who a person is, where they're from, their own culture, their own age, that sort of thing. All these are different data points that we have to consider when managing that employee. And it takes a lot of time because it'd be so much faster just to quickly judge everyone by whatever's most convenient for you and then adapt accordingly. It saves you time, but I think that's why so many people are mismanaged because of misunderstandings. So we have to take all this data into consideration and then do the best we can with it.
Guy Bloom (16:38)
Now I'm in the UK and we often look to the US and what starts there often comes our way at some point and then when it course corrects sometimes we've gone down a certain rabbit hole but the US then may have been living with it for a year or two and it's course correcting back to maybe more of a centre point. So what do I mean by that? Now, and I say this...
for the conversation, not because I'm taking up a particular position, but if we use this word woke, which is a new phenomenon, relatively speaking, for a younger generation, there's something about diversity and respect and equality and fairness, which are all incredibly powerful and valuable things. And then there is a level which is almost referred to as the woke mind virus, where certain individuals
utilise something that actually probably could work for the greater good, but they turn it into a weapon and they weaponise it. So I wonder if that is something that might be quite different, that maybe is a newer phenomenon, where actually it feels as if people are taking social positions.
but actually they're weaponizing it for almost an intellectual exercise or even a political agenda or whatever it might be. And I just wonder if, again, I'm just interested in that commentary, because I think maybe more often, and I don't know if it's true, but in that full-time salaried person, I wonder if they're more likely to be more corporately aligned.
because actually it's vocational and they may have to pay attention to careers as opposed to somebody that actually can vote with their feet a lot easier and quicker so I've said quite a bit there Scott but I just wonder if you can navigate my ramblings
Scott Greenberg (18:36)
It's a very big question and I believe that it's the same in hourly work environments and in salary, white collar environments. You look at a company like Disney, they're a worldwide company, but certainly here in the US, they have plenty of salary employees, they have plenty of hourly employees, and they do a lot of business in the state of Florida. And internally, they had a whole bunch of employees who sort of forced the company to take a political stance and vocalize it.
Whether at the corporate level executives really wanted to get involved in that discussion or not, internally those employees forced them to. They forced a company that exists to make money by entertaining families to suddenly enter politics. And there's been blowback and now there's kind of controversy, that sort of thing. And that was any, and the employees who demanded that...
Guy Bloom (19:06)
Yes.
Scott Greenberg (19:28)
were internal employees making salary that you know sort of a lot of artists, you know, that kind of thing. You know, is that better? Is that worse? I'm going to leave that to smarter people than I am. That's not my area of focus. But I think that is something that is happening, something that is changing. It's not unique to hourly environments versus salary environments, but it is something in the workplace that everyone's going to have to pay more attention to. The ways of the past are not the ways of the present and they certainly aren't going to be the ways of the future.
What we need to be willing to do if you're in leadership, if you're in management is to continuously improve, continuously adapt and continuously change. Are things getting better, things getting worse? You can have an opinion on that, I do, but I think it's the wrong question. The question is how are things today? Where are things going? How must we adapt so that we can stay relevant and stay effective? So it starts off just with a willingness to change.
then we can have different conversations. But I think in many workplaces, they're still trying to manage the way things were managed 20 years ago, and that's just not gonna cut it. So for us to bring out the best in employees, it starts by looking in the mirror and saying, who are we, what are our biases, where are we stuck, how must we be willing to adapt and change in order to be effective?
Guy Bloom (20:49)
And how does that manifest in everyday behaviour, Scott? I'm managing a group of people in whatever situation. What is it that is different between...
you know, is it actually go back five or six years or go back 10 years, the management practice of scheduling and giving people feedback and doing performance reviews and doing training sessions and doing huddles in the morning. I mean, there's a, there's a kind of a template for the operational side of things, perhaps. So what is the difference for somebody who was managing 10 years ago, or is coming in maybe fresh? And if you said this, and if I could, if I could give you the,
the top couple of things that once you step away from just the process of managing people, this is actually in your daily life, the thoughts, the questions, the things that will actually help you have the most success with that community of people.
Scott Greenberg (21:50)
Well, so I've been saying things are constantly changing, but we could do well by focusing on the things that don't change. 20 years ago, I took a course that was revolutionary for my business. And it was a course on this new technology called search engine optimization. And I pay, I don't know how many thousands of dollars they taught me and the other people who are there, all these tricks of things we could do on our website so that we would jump up to the top of the search engines and obviously Google that kind of thing.
And I did it and it worked and it was awesome. And then one day Google changes algorithm. And then over time, suddenly it wasn't about search engine optimization to find speakers. Suddenly it was also then YouTube and then came social media and all those things I paid thousands of dollars to learn. Suddenly weren't helpful anymore. Right. But there are certain rules of marketing that have never changed such as the need to have your message where people are. Wherever the eyes are, that's where you need to be.
the idea of multiple touches, getting that message out, you know, as, you know, multiple times to the same people. And then making people feel something, that you wanna have ads that move them emotionally, and that might call them to action. These are universal principles, whether you're advertising, you know, on, you know, in LinkedIn or in a stone tablet, these things have always been true. So what we need to do as managers is understand what are those universal principles about elevating others?
Understand those and then we have different tactics but to achieve the same things. And so when it comes to managing employees We need to understand that just like customers employees ultimately are driven by emotion How their work feels matters more than what they get. Yes, people want a fair salary They want benefits that might get people to come but what gets them to stay is how we make them feel Again, it's the businesses that make customers feel good that win
When we make customers feel good, they remember us, talk about us, and come back for more. What the customer gets matters less than how the customer feels. The same is true when it comes to employees. And you might not be able to pay your hourly workers very well, but you can create a best-in-class experience of work. And that happens when you understand what today's workers need emotionally. Workers have always wanted praise. They've always wanted respect. Today, these workers also want emotional safety.
because they tend to be more emotionally in tuned. You know, the negative perspective of that is well, they have thin skin, right? They're weak, they're snowflakes. But another perspective is, well, they have a lot of empathy, right? And so when they work together, work with customers. Again, our job isn't to judge it, it's to understand it so we can adapt. So what are their needs? These days, especially young people, Generation Z, they need more schedule flexibility. The idea that I'm the boss, you're my employee,
Here's the schedule, you come when I tell you. That's a construct that humans have created, that I get to dictate your schedule. And for me as a generation expert, makes sense. That's what I grew up with. I respect my boss and I have to come in and they want me to. And if I don't wanna come in, I have to ask permission. But today's generations feel a little bit differently. But the way their time is used is different. Now, if they wanna play a sport, they can only play one sport, they're expected to play a year round. And the coach isn't gonna let them
you know, take time off of practice to go to it. I mean, there's so many things that are different about their life that they have this need for flexibility. So we could fight that or we can say, maybe I need to change the way I schedule in order to accommodate. But I guess to sum it up, it's my answer is long is no matter what generation you're leading about people understand what are their emotional needs and how can you change your operation to meet those emotional needs and to meet them better?
than the other employers down the street. Because if you can do that, you'll be a best-in-class employer, you're gonna have better retention and much better performance.
Guy Bloom (25:50)
So you speak, you travel all around having these conversations. When people put their hand up in the audience or tap you on the shoulder afterwards and they go, Scott, you know, thanks for that. That's really, you know, made me think. Can I ask you, what's the general questions that if you had to say, do you know what, over a 12 month period or whatever it is, I'm generally being asked these one or two or three things. What's the stuff that people ask you, Scott?
Scott Greenberg (26:20)
The phrase I hear constantly is, how can I get my employees to, and then fill in the blank, to care more, to work better, to show up for interviews, right? It's about how can I adjust the employees, which are important questions. Half the time, the...
Guy Bloom (26:39)
So there's an attraction element. How can I even get them to come through the front door all the way through to stay? Is that what I'm hearing?
Scott Greenberg (26:44)
Well, yeah.
Well, I mean, if I had to sum up all of that is, you know, what can I do to get them to do what I want? Right? How can I, right? But very rarely is the question, how can I become more motivating? How can I have more influence? How can I improve as a manager? Not that there aren't issues based on them. Like is today generation, you know, any worse? I say yes.
I have two kids who are Generation Z. By my values, my perspective as a Generation Xer, I do think they're worse. But I can't focus on that because it doesn't help me manage them. So I have to put the judgment aside and change the question from, how can I fix this broken generation to, how can I as an older person adapt? What changes can I make to be a better manager for this group? Because they're different than when I was young or previous generations. So most of the time I'm asked,
What can be done about them as opposed to how can I change and how can I adapt? But the things that they're complaining about in those questions are getting to show up, getting them to have common sense, motivating them, making them care. But I think that bosses have always kind of had that question, the same concerns about all generations, about making people care, making people want to be there, making people want to thrive.
And it starts with us. I think the solution to most problems, we always have to start by looking in the mirror. Not blaming bosses, but I'm just saying your employees are who they are. You have to adapt if you want to bring out the best in them. I don't know what the alternative is. I guess you can try to hold out for older employees or younger employees who act like older ones. And if you can find enough of them, then go for it. But I think if you're like the rest of us, just like you have to adapt to your customers, you have to adapt to your employees.
Guy Bloom (28:40)
That's really true, isn't it? If the market shifts, you change the service or you change the product or you disappear. Blockbuster, you know, if you don't pay attention, the market shifts on. So it's exactly the same thing, isn't it? It's the same in a partnership. If you're married or whatever it is, you're going to be together for decades. Well, the chances are you're going to change.
Scott Greenberg (28:45)
Yeah, you don't complain.
Guy Bloom (29:02)
And if you don't pay attention to your partner and make adaptions to the fact that they're looking at the world in a different way, you go, well, I'm just going to stay how I am. Then guess what? You may not be together. So there is something there that says actually this is, yes, there might be certain core values that I have, fine. But actually, I think what I'm constantly hearing is this is about, this isn't about giving in and being submissive and just sort of...
ultimately allowing people to dictate to you, but it is about adaption and it is about giving people a sense of, and it may just be care, it may just be attention, it may just be a little bit more conversation, so it doesn't necessarily have to be I have to join that way of thinking, but I do have to pay attention to it.
Scott Greenberg (29:55)
I think you just nailed it. You put your finger on it. I would never ask anybody to sacrifice their principles. If you own a business and you want to run things a certain way. It's really not. If it is, it's like lighten up. You have these beliefs about how employees should be and the respect that they should show, that kind of thing. They do have respect, but they express it in different ways. We can just kind of let go of all that a little bit and just think, I'm here to run a tight organization to serve my customers and make money.
Like that's my focus. Then you can ask, okay, so what do I have to do to get the most out of my employees? And don't take it so personally. Don't think in terms of wokeness. Don't think in terms of enabling them. Think in terms of, um, it's like a puzzle that you can solve. Okay. I have this new group of people. How can I connect with them?
How can I inspire them and influence them? And once you build that kind of relationship, well then you can influence them in all kinds of amazing ways and be an inspiration to them, which not only will help them perform better and serve your customers and make you more money, but maybe it'll help you sleep better at night. Know that part of your legacy is that you took some young people and you made them a little bit better by understanding them and then connecting with them and then guiding them to make them better at what they do.
Guy Bloom (31:08)
I find that very interesting. If I, I think what I'm hearing there is, if I make the mistake of...
seeing people through the lens of a caricature. I will run the risk of, if not for foul of, then treating them as the caricature. So there is some phrase somewhere which I'm going to say horribly but treat people as they are, versus
you know treating people as you want them to be. I've made that horrible, said that horribly, but there is something about the manner in which I reflect on people will affect slash infect the way I am with them. So what I'm hearing you say there is, so actually step out of that mind virus. We think they've got a mind virus, but actually you've got the mind virus because you're now inflexible and you're now treating them.
as you think they are, but actually if you step out of that and try and engage. Because if you saw customers like that, if you saw customers as a caricature, if you saw customers as a problem, and well what do we do if a customer is...
losing their chisel in a restaurant or whatever, actually what's the job? To engage with them, to calm them down, to win them over and actually even though they may have even been wrong, they go, oh you've handled me brilliantly, thank you, I wasn't, and they may even apologise to you and say sorry I lost it. Your role is to win them over. So why actually would you not do that with your staff? And I think that's what I'm, I think I've heard that correctly.
Scott Greenberg (32:46)
Right, and so you can see all the self-management that's required there, right? Something happens, they're doing something you don't like, and maybe it makes you angry. The ability to stop and take a deep breath, give them a little grace, and try to figure out why do they do that? What is it that they need to learn? What has no one taught them yet? How can I be the one to help get them from where they are to where they can be? And I know that as a boss, you don't have a lot of time. You just want them to be good. You want them to share the same values, to see the world the same way.
I would want that too, it would make life easier. But if that's what employees were, then we wouldn't need management. You know, players wouldn't need coaches. I watched an American football game yesterday, a really big, important game, and the losing team multiple times, players made big mistakes, costing them points, giving away points because the players gave into emotion. And did things like shove someone, or one of the players got so angry that he went to the bench and he just banged it with his hand.
he ended up cutting his finger and having a problem because of not controlling his emotions. And so I think that as bosses, as management, we need to have that self-management first so that we can better manage others.
Guy Bloom (33:57)
So Scott, talk to me about the 30 second leadership coaching methodology. That's something that just stands out with a great title and anything that can be done in 30 seconds. Sounds very appealing. So what is it? Make sense of it for us.
Scott Greenberg (34:13)
Most bosses, they look at the performance of their employees and they manage accordingly without necessarily understanding the reason for that. So imagine going into a hospital emergency room and having a doctor come into the waiting area and see everyone's symptoms, they're all different, but prescribe everyone penicillin and send them home. That doctor's not going to help too many people. He's going to hurt many people. The only way the doctor can help them is if he takes time to diagnose.
what's going on behind the symptom. And then once you have a proper diagnosis, you then prescribe the best corresponding treatment. 30 second leadership is an approach to managing employees that does just that. That within 30 seconds, by asking some specific questions, you can determine what might be going on behind the scenes and what is their need. So you're evaluating both their hard skills and their soft skills, quickly making a diagnosis. Then we have this color model where you can look and based on your diagnosis,
best corresponding approach to managing them designed to boost their skill set, their mindset, and then preserve these things to keep them high. And every employee for every task has a different diagnosis, but we need to be able to quickly diagnose them for each one of those tasks and then manage them appropriately. So it's a hard skills methodology for doing it. It's hard skills, but it's actually very quick and it's very simple and extremely powerful. And so...
I go into great detail in my book about how to use it. We developed this several years ago and I have taught it to countless groups and we get such great feedback that within an hour, it makes people much better managers because they realize how they have to change and adapt in different situations to help their employees.
Guy Bloom (35:57)
and you can't teach an entire process in five seconds, but are you able to give just a line of sight on either a particular question or an approach that would excite people enough to go and buy your book to go, ah, that sounds right. Let's go and find out more.
Scott Greenberg (36:14)
You mean specifically for 30 second leadership or for the book overall?
Guy Bloom (36:17)
Yeah, I think so. I think for the 32nd leadership, yeah.
Scott Greenberg (36:20)
Okay, here's the thing is this, there's so much more details to it, but I would say this, if the reader walks away and they forget 30 second leadership, but they remember to ask when they see employee underperformance to ask themselves, is the issue what they know, or is it how they feel? Is it a hard skills issue or a soft skills issue or combination? If they ask that question and then manage accordingly, they're already 90% ahead of most managers.
for boosting performance by making that distinction between hard skills and soft skills, what the employee knows, what the employee feels, or is it some kind of combination. That is sort of the essence and everything sort of branches off from there.
Guy Bloom (37:01)
So there's something that, i.e. this is a training need, this is a skills issue, this is a fear about their inability to manage a process, or actually this is a reaction that they're having, or an emotional response that they've got, that actually if I don't understand the difference, I might confuse the two.
Scott Greenberg (37:23)
Yeah, I mean, Guy, if you understand all the technology for the Riverside platform for recording a podcast, right, you've been trained on it, right, but you're really nervous and you lack confidence, right? And that impacts your ability to do it, which by the way, you're doing a beautiful job. So we know this is not an issue for you, right? But that lack of confidence or that lack of will, that lack of desire might stop you from performing. But if I notice your performance and I say, well, let's talk again, let me explain to you once again.
how this platform works. Giving you those hard skills, that training, isn't addressing the problem. What you need is something to address your lack of will or your lack of confidence. So it's a little bit different. And so I think sometimes we misdiagnose, we intervene in the wrong way, and often we make the employee worse by doing that because we're not meeting their needs.
Guy Bloom (38:14)
So you talk in the book about hard skills and soft skills, sorry, we know about hard skills and soft skills, but you talk in the book about hard needs and soft needs. Is that a lead on from what we've just been talking about? Or is that something different?
Scott Greenberg (38:26)
It's a bit. So hard needs refer to what the employee wants. Why do they come to work for us? And generally that's for money, but it might be for, you know, benefits to have something on their resume, whatever. Hard needs are the things that they get from the job. But employees also have soft needs, emotional needs that are just as important, whether they articulate or not. The need for respect, the need for fairness, the need for praise and recognition, the need for a sense of belonging, the need for a sense of purpose.
This is another way that we compensate employees. And most of the time when employees leave, it's not because their hard needs aren't being met, it's because their soft needs aren't being met. They're getting paid plenty of money, but the place is toxic. The place doesn't make them feel good. All things being equal, employees will go where they can get paid the most. So I tell employers then don't let things be equal. You don't have to pay them the most money, but you can create the best work experience where they feel a sense of connection to great culture.
where they feel that it's healthy, where they receive praise, where it feels great. If they're getting that, they're not gonna leave for an extra dollar, an extra pound per hour to go work down the street. So often with hourly workers, we're limited as to how much we can pay them, but there's no limit as to what we can do to create an atmosphere that feels great. Same thing with customer service, right? How the customer feels is just as important as what the customer gets. So we need to think the same thing about employees and be a little bit more deliberate.
about how the work environment makes them feel. It doesn't mean just buying them pizza and doing acts of kindness. It means really creating a culture and a place where they feel that they're growing, where they feel a sense of belonging. You can do that. You're gonna see your attention go way up.
Guy Bloom (40:06)
So we've spoken a lot about the employee, the manager, the culture, the environment and these kind of things. Is it in the book or is it another book that comes that actually what is it that the employee needs to do? What's their part in this?
Scott Greenberg (40:28)
Great question. So, first of all, their part is to understand what the culture is and what the expectations are around that. So what is it that the businesses, the company, organization, what are they trying to do? More importantly than like their mission statement is the values. Like what do they stand for and what do they care about? And then here's where there's a lot of disconnect in most work environments is understanding what are the behaviors that are reflection of those values. So I was working with a chain of restaurants. One of their values is integrity.
and they say they talk about integrity all the time. But I wonder how many of their hourly workers actually understand the definition of integrity and know what it looks like. So what I told them to do is for every one of their values, break down each one into a list of behaviors, do's and don'ts that reflect that value. So for integrity, the list said, we always tell the truth. We follow through in our commitments. We don't say bad things about each other. So now they have a list of behaviors that they can be held accountable to that are very tangible.
Right? Because somebody talks about culture, they're so abstract, and that's just not useful. So we brought it down to earth for them. And so even if they don't know integrity, if they know those do's and don'ts and they live them and demonstrate them, well, now at least they know how to be and then they'll be demonstrating integrity. But what's nice about this is if they understand integrity and those behaviors, well, then if they violate that, then the manager in their reprimand can say, you're hurting our culture by doing this.
And when they praise people and say, you know, you made our culture better. Um, So it's, it's making, bringing culture down to earth. I think it's just super important for employee performance. So they have to understand what it is. And then they have to behave in a way that's consistent with that. And understanding their job isn't just to put out the products and services and sweep up and get the work done, but to behave in a way that maintains and strengthens the culture. That's the employee's job.
Guy Bloom (42:21)
So we define what processes look like, we define what behaviors look like, but actually we, what I hear you say there is, if we're not careful we're making relatively big statements that might need to have the same level of...
micro guidance that, you know, hold the knife like this, chop the onions like that, lay it on top of the steak in this way. You know, there's a kind of a specific set of standards that actually takes the guesswork out of what it is that you should be doing, because we're being really specific. So as an employee, me paying attention to, or if it's not their seeking...
clarity and am I right in understanding and you know unless it's something fundamentally that you're going to object to then maybe you're in the wrong place but if it's not that then actually be willing to recognise that when you're being paid a certain amount of money you're being paid money for two things the what you're doing but the who you're being if i've understood that correctly
Scott Greenberg (43:29)
Yeah, but most work environments fall short of training and culture. They'll train in work, but they won't train in teamwork. Right, they'll just, maybe they'll say their mission and talk about values or something, but they don't get into what it looks like because they're busy. I think busyness is the enemy of a leadership because they want to get those onions cut. So let me just quickly train the person and say, yeah, by the way, make sure you show up to teamwork when you do it, now go. And they don't really onboard them for culture.
And culture, you know, unlike, look, if I, once I train you how to do the onions, you're going to know how to do the onions, but culture, it needs to be trained and then reinforced consistently in order to maintain it. But most people don't even define culture. I, you know, I hired an employee who during the job interview, she, her personality is a little cold, but she worked for a competitor. So she knew how to do the job. And I'm like, great. Well hired her and it wasn't great. I mean, the work that she did was fine, but she'd come in, wouldn't talk to anybody.
she would cut the fruit and do the things. She'd punch out and leave and wouldn't even say goodbye. And other employees were saying whenever she's around, it just kind of bums the place out. And at Edible Arrangements, we're in the celebration business. I wanted happy employees, this positive atmosphere. So I sat her down and I told her that, and she says, I'm not interested in making friends. I came here to do my job. And then I realized that's on me because I didn't explain to her that part of her job is to make friends. Part of her job is to create that friendliness, that sense of bonding, because that ultimately is gonna impact the workplace.
the work that's done and the customer experience. So from that point on, I only hired people who were a fit for our culture. And then once it was there, we were constantly reinforcing it. So that is part of your job, right? Your job is the hard work, the physical work, but it's also the social work, those social dynamics, contributing to an environment where everybody can thrive. That's meeting people's soft needs. And that led to a much better work environment at our business.
Guy Bloom (45:21)
I love it. Now I'm just alert to time. And I say, if anybody does listen to these podcasts, they'll know that I always say what I'm about to say, which is with the right bottle of wine and the right food, I could keep you talking for the weekend. So, but I am alert to time. So I'm going to bring this to a close. If people wanted to check you out, Scott, where do they go?
Scott Greenberg (45:46)
My website is scottgreenberg.com and I'm also in all the major social media platforms and my new book, Stop the Shift Show, is available now for pre-sale and it will come out February 13th and that you can order wherever books are sold.
Guy Bloom (46:04)
fantastic and I do note you do need to be careful when you say the title of that book which I think is a stroke of genius so well done sir kudos to you for that I recognize the excellence of what you've done there so listen I've enjoyed the conversation I think people
Scott Greenberg (46:09)
That is right.
Thank you.
Guy Bloom (46:21)
when you do these things, people that are robust in their ideas and are clear in what they want to say, it's a beautiful thing and that's what you've done there. So thoroughly enjoyed that. Check out Scott Greenberg on his website, that's easy because it's his name, check out the book. And for those that are listening, thank you so much for your time. Stay on for a few moments just to make sure everything uploads, but thank you so much sir.
Scott Greenberg (46:46)
Thank you.